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Turning Your Goals Into Habits with Adam Gilbert

Jul 7, 2021 // by michaeld // Podcast // No Comments

Adam Gilbert is the Founder of MyBodyTutor, a company that helps people lose weight and live a happy, healthy life. After graduating college, Adam began working as an auditor at Ernst & Young. In 2007, he decided to quit his job as an auditor and start MyBodyTutor, which allowed him to combine his passion for health with his entrepreneurship skills.

MyBodyTutor is now celebrating 14 years of business, helping people of all ages, sizes, and shapes get (and keep) the body they want. Adam is changing the world one client at a time, and he looks forward to the positive long-term effects that MyBodyTutor will have on the lives of so many people.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

What motivated Adam Gilbert to start MyBodyTutor?
The model of transformation with the MyBodyTutor program.
What are the key factors of a successful plan?
How to break down daunting tasks and create a habit.
The formula for generating hope and self-confidence.
Adam discusses the future of online education and coaching.
Using technology to connect with people.
What are the fundamental skills of being a great coach and teacher?
Adam talks about leaving his finance job to follow his passion.
Serving the client, not the investor.

In this episode…

The most difficult part of creating new, healthy habits lies in the plan of action. It can be easy to create a plan—but it can be tough to stick to it when you’re juggling kids, work, and everything else in your life. So how do you create a successful, and achievable, plan that will change your life for the better?

Living a happy and healthy life requires commitment and accountability, according to Adam Gilbert of MyBodyTutor. But it’s not all or nothing: starting out small is one of the best ways to turn practice into habit. When you complete these small goals, you’ll feel the positive effects of the accomplishment and get one step closer to building a better life.

In this episode of The Michael Simmons Show, host Michael Simmons sits down with Adam Gilbert, Founder of MyBodyTutor, to talk about creating healthy habits. Adam shares his tips on defining your goals, building pathways to reach those goals, and gaining self-confidence to follow the pathway and create the life you want. Stay tuned.

Resources Mentioned in this episode

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by my company, Seminal.

We help you create blockbuster content that rises above the noise, changes the world, and builds your business.

To learn about creating blockbuster content, read my article: Blockbuster: The #1 Mental Model For Writers Who Want To Create High-Quality, Viral Content

Episode Transcript

Intro 0:02

Welcome to The Michael Simmons Show where we help you create blockbuster content that changes the world and builds your business. We dive deep into the habits and hacks of today’s top thought leaders. Now, here’s the show.

Michael Simmons 0:14

Today, I present to you one of my best friends, Adam Gilbert. I’ve known Adam for over 15 years now, before he started his current company, mybodytutor.com. And Adams company basically provides daily accountability for people who want to lose weight. And it’s a huge passion of his and the results he’s gotten are just incredible. He’s he’s been in business for 15 years, as I mentioned, he now has over 50 coaches helping him and has served 1000s of people helping them get these results. So Adam does articles, he’s done a lot of interviews before, but really why I want to talk with him about his his model of transformation. Because as thought leaders, we’re not only creating content, we’re we often package that content as courses or coaching to help people get a transformative result. And Adam is truly even though he’s really well known in his niche, he’s not as well known on a larger level. And I think he holds the keys to what it takes to create a transformational program that changes people’s lives and goes viral, because a lot of his growth has actually come from virality. So if that sounds exciting to you, and you want to create courses that are viral and transformative, you’re in the right place. Let’s jump in. All right, welcome to the podcast. Adam, really, really excited to have you on this.

Adam Gilbert 1:42

Thanks so much for having me. Me too. I’m excited as well.

Michael Simmons 1:45

So MyBodyTutor, it’s celebrating its 14th year in business, which you started my body to not long after we got to know each other. So it’s about we can mark our relationship to about 15 years. And there’s not many friends that I’ve had for 15 years that are so close though, just really diving on that level, just to see your your success that you’ve had with it.

Adam Gilbert 2:10

Thank you. Yeah, it’s crazy. 15 years wild.

Michael Simmons 2:13

So MyBodyTutor helps people lose weight and live a happy life, healthy life. And so on the outside, it might look different than the typical interview that I do. But I think what makes what you’re doing really interesting, is that losing weight, technically, it’s a very easy thing. Like you just move around, do exercise, and eat well. But the reality we know is that most people fail if they’re just doing it on their own. And I think there’s a lot of things like that so most people who start writing and want to write a book or something like that never finished. Most people who start a business give up early, because really, solving those types of challenges are hard. So I was just curious, what made you want to really solve that type of challenge, and really build a business that could actually solve it rather than just say, giving people recipes? And then you’re on your own?

Adam Gilbert 3:14

Yeah, well, I guess the first part of the question is, you know, what made me want to get into this and you know, that kind of goes way back. Growing up, you know, my, my sister kind of yo yo dieted throughout her childhood, and I’d see her, you know, when she was, you know, feeling good and impacted every aspect of her life. You know, and then when I was in seventh grade, my father had a heart attack. And we actually my sister is five years older, we actually she was actually learning to drive and she actually we drove him to the hospital as he was having a heart attack, which was frightening.

Michael Simmons 3:44

Wow, I didn’t realize that actually.

Adam Gilbert 3:46

Yeah, then a few days later, he had triple bypass surgery. So seeing him kind of go through that was terrifying.

Michael Simmons 3:53

He must have been pretty young at that point as well.

Adam Gilbert 3:55

Yeah. And then that same year, actually, he wound up you know, getting diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. So seeing him kind of deteriorate mentally physically throughout the years until he passed away was really really hard. So the combination of my sister my father seeing that being so close really made me value my health and fitness so much, seeing how my sister was you know a different person when she was feeling good and just the the smile and the confidence. It made me want to do that for other people. So you know that really it’s been with me you know, very, very early on. And then in terms of, you know why I started this and the way we do it is you know, health fitness is always been my passion. And I started my career at Ernst and Young. It doesn’t five and you know, even before then but there as well. I was the go to guy for health and fitness and I always give people you know, diet plans and exercise plans and I’d see them a week or two later depending on client engagements and you know, life etc. It was always the same story. It was always you know, I love the plan that you made for me but and the but I got caught up with kids I got caught up with, you know, work, I got caught up with life, happy hours, etc. And I realized they had the plan, right? They had the knowledge, I gave him a plan, they couldn’t stick with it. So that’s where the idea for, you know, accountability came came to life because I realized they had the knowledge they need to implement it on a daily basis. So I quit my full time job in 2007 NFS ever since.

Michael Simmons 5:25

Yeah, really interesting. And so you have a model for transformation. And I just know that just from knowing over the years, has had amazing results. Can you just talk a little bit about the results you’ve gotten? And maybe compare that to the normal?

Adam Gilbert 5:39

Yeah, thanks. I mean, you know, I think the reason why we get the results we do is we’re not just giving people a plan, and then essentially saying, Hey, good luck, you know, let’s touch base in a week or two. Because we know information alone rarely changes behavior. You know, we’re giving people information, and then we’re guiding them, supporting them, coaching them, holding them accountable every single day. So you know, the results we get are, you know, to me, what makes me most satisfied is, you know, when people say, I’ve tried everything under the sun, and nothing’s worked, but your program, and I think it’s a combination of a lot of things. But you know, accountability is certainly a huge part of it.

Michael Simmons 6:15

Yeah. And so, one thing I think is really interesting is you’ve been around for so long, and you’ve been optimizing for the variable of transformation over time. So you have a model that, an optimizing for that What does your model look like right now, for transformation from when somebody registers to what the journey is like for them?

Adam Gilbert 6:36

Yeah, so when someone signs up, they fill out a questionnaire. Once I get the questionnaire back, I personally still match over clients and coaches. I’m extremely hands on. So I match the client with the coach,

Michael Simmons 6:47

how many coaches do you have?

Adam Gilbert 6:49

we’re over 50 coaches now.

Michael Simmons 6:52

Amazing.

Adam Gilbert 6:53

Thanks. So the coach reaches out, they have an initial phone consultation. On that call, we’ll talk them about their current diet, their current exercise their objectives, or goals. Most importantly, we create a plan that they feel comfortable with. Because you know, one of the rules, you know, for behavior change and reaching your goals. Of course, it sounds like common sense. But it’s not common practices, you know, the plan actually has to be sustainable, it has to be doable, it has to be practical, it has to be something that you can actually stick with, right. So it can’t be a cookie diet, or shape diet, or lettuce diet or grapefruit diet, or, you know, no fun diet or any of these crazy diets. So the point is, we’re setting them up on a plan that they feel comfortable with, you know, and then the real magic happens every day after that they use our easy to use mobile app or website, they enter their food, they enter their exercise, if it was an exercise day, they submit their report. And then everyday after their very own coach is personally writing back with feedback in the in the form of suggestions, encouragement, you know, motivation, critique, etc. And the fact that we’re in communication with them every single day makes all the difference.

Michael Simmons 7:57

And you talked about in the beginning, making a plan with people. So I kind of used to be the type of person who I want to do something, I’m going to be like, I’m going to exercise five times a day, and then just go really into it. And now I’m a little bit try a little bit more to the tiny habits approach of making plans that I enjoy that I’m comfortable with, and then adding momentum. How do you think about that, if when you when you create a plan, what are those key variables? And then how do you balance them out?

Adam Gilbert 8:26

Yeah, I think it’s really important. I mean, I use the analogy of, you know, if you’re driving from New York to California, it’s far more effective to go, you know, 7580 miles an hour consistently, and to go 100 miles an hour and burnout, right. And so often, you know, we start these plans, and you know, we’re just we’re doing too much too soon. And to me, the best plans are ones where, you know, you feel hopeful, right? You feel like you can actually do it. And really, the formula for hope that I’ve discovered is about three things. Number one is having a clear and defined goal, right? Number two is having a pathway to reach that goal. And number three is the most important, it’s believing you can actually follow the pathway, right? And so often we start these diets or these exercise plans, and sure, you might be able to go to the gym for two hours a day when you’re first, you know, when you’re on that motivation high, but that we know motivation doesn’t last right, just like willpower doesn’t last. So it’s much more effective to start small to build that practice. And once that practice, I like to say the practice turns into a routine. And then the routine turns into a habit. Right? And at first the practice is weird, it feels uncomfortable. But if you do it enough, it becomes routine, then the routine becomes a habit, but very much like you starting small is way more effective, because you can always turn it up.

Michael Simmons 9:45

And in BJ Fogg has this idea that you should almost go ridiculously small. Instead of flossing your teeth. Your goal should be to floss one tooth. Is there a way that you think about how small to go on something that’s optimal.

Adam Gilbert 10:00

So I think, you know, we’re often in a state of inertia, right? We’re trying to get from a state of inertia to a state of momentum. And that’s the hardest part. It’s right. Right. It’s, you know, the World’s Strongest Man competitions. You know, one of my favorite events is watching them towed the tractor trailer, you know, and the hardest part about that event is getting the tractor trailer from a standstill to to it moving, right? Once it moving. Once there’s some momentum, it gets easier and easier and easier. So to me, it’s, I always ask the question, like, what’s the least you can do without doing nothing? Right? Very similar to BJ Fogg. And it’s an interesting question, because, you know, I’m sure there are times where you’re exhausted after a long day with the kids, what you know, saying here, and it’s like, there are times where I just want to do nothing, and ask myself, what’s the least I can do without doing nothing?

Michael Simmons 10:49

I really like that question. You can just apply that across your entire life.

Adam Gilbert 10:53

Yeah, because the whole idea is to get you moving. Because once you start moving, you’re in a very different state of mind. And when you’re in a state of inertia,

Michael Simmons 11:01

I was listening to a Joe Rogan podcast recently. And they have they have UFC fighters on there all the time. And one of the coaches was saying that, unless you’re a professional athlete, you should never be sore. And his point was, his overall point was saying that, if you’re exercising to the point of soreness, you’re pushing yourself where you’re probably going to resist it, because it’s uncomfortable. And so you should actually just be going little bits and focusing on consistency. So I just one question for you is, let’s say, the size, the tininess is one dimension, should the habit or when you’re trying to create a change, should it be something you’re really looking forward to? How do you think about the desire for it? Or Yeah, resistance? Is that a bad? Or is it a bad signal that if you feel like I’m exercising at three, I’m not looking forward to it? That’s a sign of imminent failure.

Adam Gilbert 11:53

Yeah, well, I mean, listen, I think there’s people who enjoy exercising, and there’s people who don’t and I think, especially for the people who don’t, it’s really important that you finish your workout feeling great, right? That you finish your workout, feeling energized. And if you go too far, if you push too far, and you’re absolutely exhausted, then yeah, you’re gonna be fearful, you’re not gonna want to go back the next day. So you know, for people who don’t like exercising, they often say like, you want to finish your workout when you’re feeling good, not when you’re feeling spent, not when you’re feeling like, you know, not when you’re just on the floor dripping in sweat exhausted?

Michael Simmons 12:27

What about starting a workout? Is there a certain way you should feel to be getting a workout and your opinion.

Adam Gilbert 12:33

So I always joke, like, the best time to workout is when you feel like it. And the second best time to workout is when you don’t feel like it. And, you know, this is what I do. This is my life. And there are many times where I don’t feel like working out. You know, and I think one of the most foundational and most transformative practices is learning how to start when you don’t feel like it. And I think the key to starting is, you know, not creating this daunting task, right? So especially when you’re starting out, again, going back to the two hour workout, it’s far more effective to say, you know, what, I’m gonna commit to working until walking 10 minutes, or 15 minutes or 20 minutes, versus saying I have this daunting workout to do. And it just, you know, I can’t wrap my head around that.

Michael Simmons 13:17

It’s really interesting that right now, there’s a lot of books coming out on habits in particular in the past seven years with Charles Duhigg, and BJ Fogg and James Clear. And all of these are great books. None of them are based off, but they’re all based off of research in some way. Your is based your approach is based off of, you’re working with, I guess, probably 100 1000s of clients over the years and really getting day to day feedback over months and years. And I was curious, are there any areas where you differ on conventional wisdom on habit?

Adam Gilbert 13:52

Yeah, I mean, it’s a really interesting question. I think the one thing that I see a lot of books talking about, and those books are all great, Gretchen Rubin hasn’t booked better than before. I mean, they’re all fantastic books. You know, is a lot of people, a lot of these authors talk about falling out of habit or falling out of the habit of something. But to me, it’s not truly a habit, if you can fall at it, right? Like, I don’t start, like I brush my teeth every day, twice a day. I don’t ever like, rarely do I forget to brush my teeth, or I’m never like, Oh my god, it’s been a few weeks since I haven’t, you know, brush, right? So to me, it’s truly not a habit. Unless it’s second nature. Unless it’s part of your identity unless it’s part of who you are. And that to me something that’s interesting, because I think a lot of these books talk about, you know, falling out of habit. You know, one of the things we really pride ourselves on is helping people get to a point where that behaviors we’re we’re implementing are second nature, where they’re, you know, just ambiguous, where they’re truly habitual, you don’t fall out of the habit of brushing your teeth.

Michael Simmons 14:56

So what I hear you saying between the lines is, there’s two big steps within the creation and maintenance of a habit, one first step is going from zero to one. And that’s really hard step. And then there’s a step from when you’re doing the habit. Like you’re, and then you actually are the habit, that is who you are. What is the key from? How long does that take? What does that look like? What’s the key to go to that next stage?

Adam Gilbert 15:21

Yeah, so, you know, like the old, you know, wisdom, or, you know, what we heard is 30 days from habit. And, you know, we they’ve proved that’s not necessarily true. And of course, you know, it depends on the type of habit, right, so brushing my teeth, or flossing is requires less effort than me going to the gym, right? Or, you know, whatever it might be, like, different habits require different amounts of effort. So, yeah, I mean, there’s no doubt starting from zero to one is often the hardest part. But the key thing is the practice of it. And I think sometimes we mistake a habit for the newness for the motivation wave, that, you know, we often get when we’re starting something new. And sometimes these these practices truly don’t become habit until we get through the point where it’s uncomfortable, right? I call it FDR, fear, discomfort and resistance. And especially the more effort habit requires, the more likely you’re going to have to go through that to truly get to the other side.

Michael Simmons 16:24

Yeah, so

it struck me that one way of thinking about a habit after hearing you is what you do when you have low motivation. Or it’s another way of saying whether you do it consistently all the time. Yeah, sure. And it’s really interesting around identity, and what it takes for something to become part of your identity, and whether you believe, like you said, that you can do it. And I was reading one of your articles, and you’re talking about how, if you try to go for a long time, like let’s say losing weight, and you just, you keep on doing it, but then you’re yo yoing, you could lose confidence at a time. And I’ve noticed the same thing with writing, or starting a business, when we’re working with people, it’s typically they’ve already tried it a lot and lost self confidence. Beyond just doing the habit, what can one do to get more self confidence?

Adam Gilbert 17:16

Yeah, so that’s a really interesting question. And we should talk about identity too, because I think that’s super fascinating and helpful. But, you know, I think confidence often comes down to hope, right, and for a lot of people, you know, especially in my world, they they’ve tried a million different diets. And they keep failing. And obviously, failing is not a fun feeling. And they, there’s a part of them that wants to just avoid that feeling in general. And each time they fail, it’s kind of reinforcing this identity. And that’s why it’s so important to go back to hope. And again, there is a formula for hope, right? Again, it’s having a clear defined goal, right. So for your people, it’s, you know, perhaps starting a business or writing or whatever it

Adam Gilbert 17:58

might be.

Adam Gilbert 18:00

So having a clear and defined goal, having a pathway to reach that goal, right. So it can be, you know, writing for 20 minutes a day, or it could be walking for 15 minutes a day, or it could be reducing, you know, your afternoon sugar, whatever it might be, but you have a pathway to reach your goal. But the key thing is believing you can actually follow the pathway. And that is so important and so often overlooked, because you’re starting these diets or starting these, you know, these regimens, whatever, and consciously or subconsciously, you know, you can’t stick with it, and you’re setting yourself up for failure. And that goes back to what we were just talking about. Start small, because even if you feel like this is too easy, don’t let your mind trick you. Because our mind is constantly trying to trick us saying this isn’t enough, or it’s not worth it. So it becomes this if I’m doing unless I’m trained for a marathon, I’m not doing anything, right. But of course, we know it can’t just be all or nothing. The goal is always something not all or nothing.

Michael Simmons 18:59

that’s a that’s a good quotable, always something that not all or nothing. And can you tell me more though, about how to build that identity? Is it truly you feel like starting small getting consistent, then the identity just naturally happens? You know, over time, you’re not just someone doing a goal, you are the goal, or are there affirmations or visualizations or anything like that, that you have found work?

Adam Gilbert 19:24

Yeah, so I think first of all, it comes from understanding and accepting that that again, there’s going to be FDR fear or discomfort and resistance, right? No matter what you do, there’s going to be that right. I like, the way I put it is, if you do what you’ve always done, that’s going to feel comfortable, right? By nature. You just keep doing, you’re done. It’s going to feel comfortable. If you do something differently. By nature, it’s going to feel uncomfortable, just because it’s different. Right? There’s no it’s just the way it is. So first, I think it’s accepting that it’s going to be uncomfortable. And then, you know, I think you’re very much in alignment is like sometimes the best advice is often in questions and asking yourself The question of what would a healthy and fit person do right now? Or what would a writer do right now? Or what would a business owner do right now? And, again, going back to starting small, you do what that person would do, even if it’s just having a piece of fruit or going for a five minute walk, right? Because you ask yourself what you do you do that. And the thing is, actions reinforce identity. But then, of course, the more you’re doing something, it becomes a self becomes a virtuous cycle, right? So you know, your actions reinforce your identity, and then your identity reinforces your actions. Because as you do more and more, you build this momentum, and you start to feel good, and you start to act like that person, then it’s like, Oh, you know what, I am a healthy fit person. And that becomes a beautiful virtuous cycle.

Michael Simmons 20:47

Do you have any, you know, BJ Fogg talks about when you do have it, you succeed, you know, even just doing a fist pump or something like that gives you the celebration of it, do you, of course, you have the feedback every day, you know, so imagine if somebody is doing well, you’re, you’re celebrating that is there? How do you think about celebration as part of this formula for identity?

Adam Gilbert 21:08

I think that, you know, I think celebration is always good, you know, one of my rules of thumb is like, if you’re going to celebrate or reward yourself with a purchase, one of the best things you can do is buy something that’s going to make it easier to do that habit. So for example, let’s say you’re trying to exercise more, a great way to do that, or a great way to celebrate that would be to buy fun exercise

Michael Simmons 21:28

clothes, right? Instead of saying, Okay, if I just do this, then I can eat this pizza slice of pizza and the cake that I want.

Adam Gilbert 21:35

Right? Right. And ideally, the you know, the habit itself, or the practice you’re trying to establish is the reward in itself. Right. And, you know, the key to that is doing it in a doable way, right. So if you’re exercising for two hours on your first day in the gym, or the first day at home, whatever, that’s gonna probably not lead to feeling very, you’re probably gonna feel exhausted. But if you exercise for 15 minutes, and you feel energized and accomplished, that’s the reward in itself, ideally,

Michael Simmons 22:05

right? And that goes back to the idea of finishing on a good note, not where you’re just about, you’re like crawling out of it. And, okay, really interesting. And so one thing I really noticed in our course, is, I really resonate this with idea of FDR. And you Seth Godin talks about it with the resistance. And, and I feel like in the last 10 years, that’s been one of the main things he’s talked about. And so one thing I really noticed is that people often use those as signs that they’re on the wrong path. That, okay, I’m doing this and I don’t feel right, therefore, must not be right for me versus I knows other people who have it as part of their identity. They’re like, good, this means I’m on the right path, that it’s almost the same signal, but just interpreted completely different ways. How do you think about how do you notice that? And how do you think about it?

Adam Gilbert 22:58

Yeah, this is my favorite. I mean, one of my, you know, mantras is, you know, discomfort is our compass. Again, going back to what I just said, discomfort means we’re doing something differently, and keep doing what you’ve always done. It’s going to feel comfortable, and you’re going to get the same result, right. If you’re doing something differently, it’s going to feel uncomfortable, and you’re going to get a different result. So to me, discomfort is our compass, it lets us know we’re headed in the right direction. And of course, the key thing to remember is, you know, what’s easy now was once hard, right? What’s hard now will soon be easy if you stick with the practice. And it’s actually, you know, it benefits us the fact that it’s hard. It’s known as cognitive disfluency. And what that what they’ve shown is that the harder something is to learn, the stickier it becomes, right, the more habitual it eventually becomes.

Michael Simmons 23:49

Yeah, you know, I’ve also heard it called desirable difficulty as well. But that that same interesting, I love hearing new words, please write that down. And you’re taking a step back here from weight loss, and even just transformation to online education, online education, maybe about 20 years old, give or take. And then when you measure it from, and I think the first version was these courses, where you record something, and then you put them together in lessons. And then that’s the course. And it seems like there’s a shift now to more cohort based programs. Not to say that these recorded courses, I feel like you can get better and get if you get really good feedback loops and have shorter videos, that can work really well still. But I think people are saying that not people are seeing that knowledge is no longer enough. So how does your work with MyBodyTutor? make you think differently about online education and where it’s going and this whole space?

Adam Gilbert 24:56

Yeah, great question. I mean, my thesis from day one was that lack of knowledge is not the real issue. It’s a lack of consistent action, right. And we can certainly get into in terms of health and fitness or anything, but it’s about a lack of consistent action. And it’s been really interesting to see how course creators have changed their offerings. So you know, when I first started, it was more about, we’re selling this knowledge, right, there’s a, you know, a curtain. And behind this curtain, we’re going to give you all these secrets, all this knowledge to get to where you want to be. And then as time went on, it was interesting to see how all these course graders realized that rarely were people following through or implementing the knobs. So then they started incorporating accountability. Right. and accountability, of course, is, you know, the glue that ties commitment to a result. So they started offering accountability. And of course, what some of these, you know, course graders realize is, it’s very hard, it’s very difficult to offer one on one accountability, then it was a question of, well, how do we want to offer the accountability? And I think that’s where the peer accountability came into play. Right. So it’s, you know, I call it a peer to peer accountability versus pro accountability. And it’s, they’re certainly effective. But there, you can get a very different result. And I think that’s where it came from. It was, you know, first there was knowledge, and they realize people weren’t following through. And you know, what’s the point of all this knowledge if people aren’t implementing it, and they wanted to offer accountability, and then it’s become, oh, how do we offer this accountability? What’s the most effective way to offer it for the scale we’re trying to work at?

Michael Simmons 26:30

Yeah, I do think there’s a huge difference between pro accountability and peer accountability. What are your thoughts on group coaching? You know, I think there’s obviously huge benefits to one on one coaching, as you said, it’s more resource intensive to offer. group coaching can have benefits in that, like landmark or other programs, where people, you’re hearing other people’s experiences, and you’re part of a community. And when you see other people’s experiences, it helps you reflect on your own blind spots, because it’s harder to see it in yourself. Is there a way that you think about that? Adam, I just lost out, there we go. I’ll share a bit about how do you think about group coaching?

Adam Gilbert 27:12

Yeah, so listen, obviously, I’m biased in in one on one coaching. But I’ve seen the results, right? For me, at least in the fitness world. You know, group coaching is tricky. Because the old, I was asked, like, if you’re in a group, and you don’t show up, what happens, does anyone notice? You know, for a lot of these groups, no one notices. You know, and so there’s there’s no accountability. But I think depending on the type of objective you have, and the type of goal you have, it can be very effective. because like you said, it allows you to reflect on where you are. And, you know, oftentimes we can learn the most about some, you know, focusing on someone else’s problems, right, and see what they’re going through. So I think it really depends, you know, on the objective and the goal. You know, I think for something where it’s very intense in terms of like, for losing weight, it’s a process, right, and you know, you’re eating multiple times a day you’re exercising it, there’s just a lot of, you know, daily things that have to happen in order to make it to get to where you want to be. But I think for business, or other things that could certainly be very effective. Absolutely.

Michael Simmons 28:16

Hmm. Are there any innovations that you have, or you see coming down the pike that are beyond what we’ve talked about with pro accountability, peer accountability, group coaching, that you think the future of online courses will all have our portion of them? Will?

Adam Gilbert 28:34

I mean, you know, I just, I think people realize that, you know, one on one is effective, and I think people are trying to offer that. So like, one thing I’ve noticed, which is interest, I mean, this isn’t really accountability, but it’s just interesting how, you know, influencers, I hate that word, but influencers or celebrities or, you know, having this like, you know, you can text them, right, and it’s like they have this big phone number they text 1000s and 10s of 1000s and millions of people, and I think it’s trying to get through this closeness. But in terms of like your question, you know, I don’t I don’t know if there’s anything that I think it’s just, perhaps it’s video, perhaps it’s, you know, I mean, video exists, but like, text me I there’s nothing I know of right now. I think companies are trying to figure out the best way to offer accountability for the scale they’re playing at

Michael Simmons 29:25

what has allowed you to be successful with bro accountability that other companies who tried it and realize it’s too complicated to offer. What’s made it work for you?

Adam Gilbert 29:36

Yeah, I mean, you know, I think, as you know, I mean, I’ve been laser focused since day one. I mean, we’ve literally had the same two offerings since day one, right. We have two plans. That’s it. And you know, my mission from day one is how do we become the best in the world at helping people stay consistent with their health and fitness goals? And it’s always been, let’s find world class coaches, and let’s find people to help and that’s it. That’s all we focused on. Um, you know, we’ve never, you know, deviated into group coaching. And sure, it could be more profitable, it could be easier. But to me, what people need, especially in this space is one on one coaching. You know, and that’s why, you know, we’ve never deviated from the plan.

Michael Simmons 30:17

Yeah, what I take away from that, as I’m someone who likes to take something and be like, Okay, how can we do this, add this and add this. So I appreciate how your mind thinks here has been interesting. Just seeing it over a 14 year period, I can see how, number one, you’ve kept a really high quality bar, you didn’t make sacrifices on that quality in order to scale more. But then by staying very focused, you’ve been able to just build better systems get better at it, though you actually have gotten form of scale. Yeah, scalability. Do you feel like it is what I capture that right? Do you feel like the model if you focus on it can work for people, you just have to really focus on it? And

Adam Gilbert 30:58

yeah, listen, there’s no doubt we’ve sacrificed growth. You know, we’ve sacrificed growth, and it’s taken a long time to get to where we are. But to me, I was, you know, I’m a recovering perfectionist. And I just really believed in what we offered. And I wanted to offer that and continue to offer that I didn’t want to compromise on what I felt people really needed. People don’t need, you know, for the in this space, in my opinion. I don’t think people need group coaching. And it’s worth, you know, just kind of quickly talking about peer versus pro accountability. So peer accountability is obviously friends, family, etc. You know, and I always go back to my mom as an example, you know, she’s a former high school English teacher. You know, she’s the tutor for the SAT’s. And when it was time for me to take SAT’s, many years ago, of course, I didn’t take it seriously because she’s my mom. Right? So it’s really hard to be brutally honest with a friend or family member. It’s some it’s hard to tell someone that the hard truth that we sometimes sometimes need to hear. Whereas Of course, pro accountabilities, you’re hiring someone, and their sole objective is to help you get to where you want to be. And sometimes there’s tough love, it’s always love. But sometimes it’s tough. You might not want to, you might not hear what you want to hear, but you hear what you need to hear. You know, and I think it’s worth just noting that because I think, especially if you’re looking for accountability, you really have to decide what would work best for you.

Michael Simmons 32:18

Yeah, I’ve done a lot of peer accountability. And I feel like when it works, I’ve often had two people, two other people. Because if that way, one person is not consistent, it doesn’t completely just come down to zero. And then I in my mind, I just account that most of them are going to fail. In the sense that just it takes time to find those right person who’s just as committed as you are is going to be on time and take it as seriously. And so that’s it, it is what it is. Your one question I had for you is, okay, so the core of what you offer is accountability, and one on one coaching and support. But it seems like information is a part of it as well. What are your thoughts on this? Let’s say just in time information. So do you have a library of paid content that as you’re giving one on one, coaching, and somebody has a challenge? You’re like, oh, here’s the challenge you’re facing? And here’s an article or resource we’ve created on it.

Adam Gilbert 33:15

Yeah, so it’s, it’s an interesting question. Good point. So, you know, I think there’s accountability. And I think some people think of accountability or kind of sell it as, you know, good job, bad job. It’s like, Did you do this? Great. You didn’t do it not good. Like, why don’t you do it. And it’s kind of shame. And I think accountability is certainly a core part of what we offer. But it’s also teaching, right, and it’s helping people change their relationship with food, helping people change their behaviors, and information is a part of that. But the way we do it, we call it stepping stones. So you have a stepping stone, once you pass that stepping stone. And as we like to say, once that’s set in stone, then you move on to the next stepping stone. And slowly but surely, you’re changing your behavior. I always use the analogy of, you know, if you change a ship, one plank at a time, eventually becomes a new ship. And that’s kind of how we do with our clients. So it’s not, hey, here’s your challenge. You’re going, you’re going through, go read this article. It’s more, because we have so much experience now we anticipate where they are in their journey. And we’re coaching them sometimes as they’re going through it or even right before they’re going through it.

Michael Simmons 34:23

Mm hmm. So it’s, it’s rather than the sending into a length you’re actually coaching people with Yeah, the attacks are once you have conversations with them, helping them that way. And you’re when you say stepping stones, it’s almost like a mastery based performance. It’s not a curriculum, you just go through at the same rate. Everyone goes at the same rate. It’s one where once you master thing, that particular person, then you go on to the next thing.

Adam Gilbert 34:51

Yep

Michael Simmons 34:52

that makes a lot of sense. And what are your thoughts on there’s different course platforms? We use teachable. There’s kajabi there’s other YouTube Me, sometimes I found them a little bit cumbersome to use. And once you have one on one coaching, that’s more of a personal relationship, do you use texting a lot? And how important is that for the delivery of the connection with people?

Adam Gilbert 35:15

Yeah, so we built our own proprietary app, we have our own mobile app, we have our own website, we text with our clients. But you know, something that might make you or any course grader or whatever feel a little better is you can obsess over the technology. And to me, the best technology just doesn’t get in the way. Right. So like, you know, you’ll, you know, my space versus Facebook, you know, people say, My Space used to crash all the time, right. So like Facebook, in the early on, especially never had interruptions, etc. The point is, you don’t want the technology to get in the way, so long as you’re in that place. It really is about the person on the other end, right? So the teacher, the accountability, person, buddy, the coach, etc. So, you know, we have I love our proprietary app, and mobile app and website, etc. But it doesn’t work unless there’s a really committed coach on the other end. So like, we’re always trying to make it better. But we’re also trying to make the coaches better too, because that’s really what’s going to dictate and create the change.

Michael Simmons 36:12

Yeah, it is kind of interesting. I love this field in general. And I think it’s going through a really interesting phase, I’ve just followed different venture capitalists and top entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley. And there’s a lot of attention now on this space, and people feeling like the returns in this space, will it be just as high as it is in software, I felt that for a while, while and I think it’s great, because you get a social use social impact return and the world changing so fast, I think we really need people to be able to self transform, and a business return. And I just lost where I was going on that. But I think it’s an interesting space. Oh, and there’s interesting skill sets that go into it. And I like to as somebody who focuses on learning how to learn, think about what are the skill sets, though somebody wants to become a programmer, or an entrepreneur in the Silicon Valley, there’s really great tracks of, Okay, go get your programming degree. And here’s your specialty within programming. And so I view coaching as one of the fundamental skills of this space, because it’s a great feedback loop is the fundamental unit of when you take one person who you’re talking with week after week, and give them support, that’s that they go to the next level. And then the great thing is you actually see that feedback loop of this work this didn’t. And so somebody who’s coached 50 clients, I’d much rather trust their advice than somebody who’s a public speaker and speaking 50 times, it’s just night and day. How do you think about what the critical skill sets are for someone who wants to be involved in the space create and create transformational programs?

Adam Gilbert 37:55

Yeah, so that’s, you know, I think the number one characteristic or most important characteristic of a great coach is empathy. You really need to be able to understand where your client is at where your student is at, you really need to try to get in their head, right. And so often, especially once you become more advanced at something, you forget that beginner’s mindset. So the more you can remain empathetic, the more you can really get in your head. And, you know, if you can articulate what they’re feeling before they even share it with you, they’re going to instantly feel this connection, they’re going to instantly feel this trust. And in order to make, you know, coaching happen, or should say, to get the benefits of coaching, which is crazy transformation and people they have to like you, they have to trust you, right. And the best way to do that is for them to feel like you understand them. Right? If they think he or she gets me, then you’re in because then they’re more likely to listen to you. Yeah.

Michael Simmons 38:54

You think empathy is one of the fundamental skill steps of coaching? And how do you become more empathetic? How do you anticipate what someone’s feeling before they articulate it to you.

Adam Gilbert 39:07

So I don’t know how to become more empathetic. But I do know that when you’re doing something for so long, and you’ve seen 1000s and 1000s of lines, you see patterns. And for us, it allows us to anticipate where people are in their journey, right? We have all sorts of things, markers, and etc, that allow us to see where they’re at and really anticipate where they’re at. So for that it’s just experience and pattern recognition, and spending time in the weeds and looking at that. But in terms of empathy, I don’t know. That’s an interesting question.

Michael Simmons 39:42

That’s funny. Yeah, I think another thing I think is interesting beyond just becoming aware of what the different skill sets are, are putting them in the right sequence because it could take years to it will take years to really become the master level, as you’re alluding to with this that you have to have a lot of patterns. Recognition? So, would you say coaching is one of the first skill sets you’d recommend for people? And how long did it you feel like it took you to really get that pattern recognition and get things going? How many reps or I don’t even know how to define them into experience.

Adam Gilbert 40:15

Yeah, but what what’s, what’s your question? Do I think becoming is the question, how long does it take to become a great coach? or? Yeah, I

Michael Simmons 40:27

realized there’s kind of two questions. So the first question would be, how, when should somebody learn to be a coach in the progression to if somebody wants to create programs or write articles that help people transform their lives?

Adam Gilbert 40:41

Gotcha. So, I mean, I think coaching is something I don’t want to say it’s an eight, but I think it’s, it can be looked back in your life, you realize the type of impact you’ve had on people. So you know, just growing up, I played sports, I felt like I was always helping people I played with, you know, some of the best training I ever had was actually, I used to be a caddy in high school. And I dealt with all sorts of personalities. And very quickly, you realize what works for this person might not work for that person. In fact, it’ll give you the exact opposite of what you’re looking for. So I think you have to look at situations where you’ve tried to help people and see how they respond. You know, and for me, caddying was, I mean, I did that for six summers. And it was an amazing, you know, just fascinating, just to witness these people to see what I said, how that impacted your golf game. But I think anyone who wants to, you know, create courses, etc. Like, you have to think about your ultimate objective. And if your ultimate objective is to get people to take action, and transform, then you need to be a coach, you need to be able to teach. And I think maybe coaching can be daunting, especially if you don’t have experience. So I would say, how do you become a better teacher, right, and just focus on the teaching aspect. Because I think the teaching is more VIP coaching conferences, a lot more soft skills. Whereas teaching is more you’re imparting your wisdom. And then as you’re doing that, you can see how people respond. And that’s where you can kind of figure out the nuances a little more.

Michael Simmons 42:13

Are there any recommendations on how to coach and structure their practice, such that they learn faster? So for example, maybe having a feedback form that people fill out before every session, so you could see how your your feedback impacted them? Or, you know, you should, there’s a few patterns, you need to recognize and particularly focus on those number one, maybe there’s different archetypes that people fall into, through any transformation. So you want to understand what those archetypes are, like you said, everyone’s different. And then you want to narrow down to the few pieces of advice that consistently work or something like that.

Adam Gilbert 42:51

Yeah, it’s really tricky, man. Because, you know, there’s no doubt the more reps you can get the better, right, but asking a student or a client, or whatever you want to call it, you know, we call them clients, whatever, for feedback is really hard. Because, you know, think about, you know, remember restaurants, people would go to restaurants, or, you know, there’s many times where I’ve gone to a restaurant and the food was not great. And the waiter or waitress comes over, and she’s like, how is it? And I’m like, Oh, it’s amazing. Or I’ll just say it’s fine. It’s great. Yeah, two seconds later, I’m like, this is awful. It’s terrible. And that’s just a waiter or waitress. Yeah, I feel bad. Hurting their feelings. Right? So it’s, it’s, it can be tricky to get feedback from someone you’re working with, mostly, because there you might be afraid to hurt your feelings. So for me, like, with MyBodyTutor, here, it was, you know, I started in 2007. We started literally with one client, and then it grew. And, you know, it’s like, clients can tell me they love me or, or, or whatnot. But it really wasn’t until there was word of mouth that it’s like, no, they really do because they’re starting to work. I don’t know if that’s all that helpful. I think I think for any beginner coach, I think the key thing is just getting reps, do it for free. Just you know, if you truly love what you’re coaching and teaching, then you would do it for free. Because the truth is, I did this many, many years for free. Before I started MyBodyTutor. I was a personal trainer, but even like, just with friends, family in corporate America, like if you love what you’re doing, then you’re going to just you can’t help yourself.

Michael Simmons 44:26

Yeah, yeah, I always feel like there’s two ways of looking at things. You know, one is very tactical, but you missed something from it. And I think what you said speaks to that. And when I first when I remember when you launched this and your energy is the exact same, you’re like, I’m really excited. I want to see people have the results. You’d be talking about the results you’ve gotten with people and we’re just excited, and just always very focused on that. And so you alluded to that a little bit. So beyond just saying you’re you’re born with it, or that’s how you are what are the things that people How can people develop that within themselves? Let’s say it’s maybe a latent ability, but normally we don’t think about it.

Adam Gilbert 45:08

Yeah, I mean, I think it’s, it’s, it’s ultimately Well, first of all, I want to say thank you. Because, you know, every day we wake up, I feel so lucky to do what I do. And it’s cool, because I mean, we were, you know, so close back then. And like, you know, 14 years in, and, you know, I’m more passionate than ever. So, you know, to me, my goal is to do this for the rest of my life. And so I just want to say thank you for that, because it’s, it’s cool. I mean, it’s it. I’m very lucky. But your point, I think, you know, you really just have to practice. I mean, I don’t know, if there’s a shortcut around it, you just have to practice coaching people. And the only way to develop that, you know, if it’s a, you know, this ability that you don’t even know you have is you have to get the reps in. I don’t know if there’s a better answer for that. I don’t know. What do you think?

Michael Simmons 45:57

Well, it definitely strikes me that. Well, okay, I’ll take a step back. I’m fascinated by just studying patterns of how people become who they are. And I think a lot of stories, we pick up with the person right before they take off. And we don’t hear about all the skills that lead before that. So it strikes me that you talk about you’re excited for about what you’re doing and and more than ever, and you would I think you’d have said the same thing. 14 years ago, the exact same thing. And so I wonder beyond caddying what you did before then that already gave you that very rare mindset. I think very few people are have that level of excitement. And I know before that job, your job, you know, you weren’t the most excited about when you’re working in the, in the finance industry. Sure, yeah.

Adam Gilbert 46:49

I had a stomach, stomachache. I hated what I was doing so much. Um, you know, I think it comes down to belief, I just really believed in what I was doing. And I know that might sound hokey or cheesy or whatever. But, I mean, listen, I believed in what I was doing enough to like, quit my job and all that. I think you really just have to believe in what you’re offering. And I felt that the accountability, let’s just say, I mean, there’s no doubt better coach today than than I was even a month ago, a year ago. And every year I hope to be improving. So I felt that even if my coaching wasn’t as good as I thought it was, the accountability would help as well. And I just really believe in the offering we had. And that’s what gave me the confidence to push forward. And then it becomes a self perpetuating thing. Because you get clients, you get, you know, transform these unbelievable transformations. And your confidence becomes a direct result of the people you’re helping have the success you have. So you have to kind of get to the point where you can have a few successes, then you let that success drive your confidence.

Michael Simmons 47:54

Yeah, I think part of it too, is giving yourself permission is basically you’re charging $100 when you first started, as you know, I was always like just thinking about how much time it took you to provide that service, you know, and those people charge $100 per hour, a lot of people charge $100 per hour, you’re going way above and beyond that. But I think you’re willing to do it, because you just had so much passion. And that gave you the experience. And for me it was the same with writing that I getting into writing, I just gave myself permission to write about what I wanted to write about. Even if I didn’t even know how I was going to make money. I was just so excited about it. And that’s when I really feel like I became a kid in a candy store. And that’s where the financial success really came at. Mostly after that, though, I think there’s something about just taking what you already have the fire inside of you and just stoking it. And there’s so many times where you’re probably you took that finance job, because you thought well, it’s prestigious, that’s maybe what other my peers are doing and versus this other bet other people might have said, You’re crazy at first, but you just followed it.

Adam Gilbert 48:57

Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. I mean, even before I was charging $100 I was charging $75. And you always used to say you’re not charging enough. You’re not sure you even still say to this day, we’re not charging enough for what we offer. And I appreciate that. And I

Michael Simmons 49:11

It’s $250 per month now? on the low end. Yeah, yeah. Which is amazing. I mean, just that, you know, again, you know, you go to like a top trainer at a gym, but I was going I was paying $125 per an hour for just one session. I mean, you’re getting a whole month of daily feedback. It’s crazy.

Adam Gilbert 49:30

Yeah, well, thank you. I mean, we try to, you know, make it, you know, really accessible. I think that’s a really good point, though. You know, I think it really drives me crazy because, you know, people charge a lot of money because they think it signals expertise. But then if you’re charging a certain level, you have to be at a certain level. And you know, if you’re charging to say $1,000 and there’s many coaches who charge way more than now just, you know, crazy in my opinion. You know, you If you can’t deliver the results, then you’re very quickly going to be out of, you know, people to help. Whereas if you start small, I think people are willing to give you a chance, and you can build up. So I think that’s a really good point as well as you start small. I mean, you can’t charge what an expert level coach charges, because you don’t have that expertise. And if you truly love what you’re doing, then the money really doesn’t matter. I mean, we always used to talk about you always used to say, Adam, what’s your I always forget the term

Michael Simmons 50:29

the economics of one unit?

Adam Gilbert 50:30

Yeah, the economics of one unit. I’m like, I don’t know, you’re like, you’re probably making 40 cents an hour. And I’m like, Yeah, I probably am. But it doesn’t matter. Because I love doing this. And, you know, I think if you chase your passion, and if you truly love what you’re doing, the money will follow. You know it, because if you’re just chasing an opportunity, you’re going to be on to the next opportunity whenever that arises. And to me, that’s the ultimate competitive advantage. Like, I would use break, I intend to do this for the rest of my life because I love doing like, I can work all day long.

Michael Simmons 51:02

What’s your vision for the future of your company and yourself in this world of transformation?

Adam Gilbert 51:09

I just really, you know, we’re 14 years in now, I want to continue to do what we’re doing. I mean, you know, I’ve been very committed to our mission, I’ve been very steadfast in their values, and you know, the way we run our business. And, you know, I feel like we’re finally getting to a point where we have some really nice momentum, I want to just keep building what we’re doing, you know, this is the point I think we’re companies would be like, you know, well, how can we serve more people at a cheaper way, or, you know, or take on more people. And to me, this is the inflection point where we keep doing what we’re doing. You know, we’re not trying to be the next Weight Watchers or, you know, company like that, you know, my goal is to, you know, build what we’re doing to be the world leader in daily accountability and daily coaching around health and fitness.

Michael Simmons 51:56

Hmm. There’s certainly temptation you you’ve built, a lot of friends are very successful in Silicon Valley. And so I’m sure you have people telling you, Adam, you got to raise money you have what you’re offering here is awesome. You got to scale this, what’s made it so that you’ve just been so focused, and have it in Okay, in a moment of weakness, listening, all right, we just got to go big here and sacrifice your value.

Adam Gilbert 52:23

I mean, there really hasn’t. I mean, you hear about these stupid numbers, and you’re like, that’s a lot of money. But like, I mean, I remember how I felt walking to work at noon every day, I literally had a stomachache every day, because I hated what I was doing. So much. So to me, the real reward truly is getting to do what I love doing. It’s it’s like, I mean, listen, we’re way bigger now than we were, you know, five years ago and 10 years like, to me, the reward is getting through I love doing so it’s really never a thought, you know, I want to help people in a certain way, because I really believe that’s what people need.

Michael Simmons 52:59

Now, we’re starting to get to kind of my therapy type questions, because I have I admire that I think there’s a lot of wisdom and your approach. And I know for me, sometimes, you know, when you’re surrounded by people who are achievers, even though I’m doing well, and I don’t need to make more money, basically, you know, but I still feel somehow less than for whatever reason, I’m honestly trying to just understand it myself. When I feel that I noticed that leads me to think in ways or try to act more rationally, that or even sacrifice what’s even something I already have that’s important for something that’s less important. Do you ever feel that when you see a new startup in the health space that they’re doing some they’re doing group coaching or something and you’re like, oh, shoot, they’re growing really fast? They raise money? And

Adam Gilbert 53:53

I mean, listen, I’m very aware of what’s going on out there. I see the numbers, I see these companies. You know, it makes you pause and take a look. But I think, you know, I’ll go back, I’ll ask you the question, because, you know, you joke. I mean, like, you know, let’s just say someone gave you $50 million. I mean, would your life change all that much? I think in the startup world that we’re both enamoured by and so fascinated by we tend to view success as a money amount $1 amount. So I think there’s definitely some validation. But let’s just say you know, you sold your company for $50 million, or $100 million. Alright, great. You get the short term ego boost. Everyone knows you, you know, your big success, but then what? Like, like, then what? Like, like to me, if I sold you know, my buddies here, then I don’t get to do what I will do any rights. Yeah, it’s a different. I’m playing a different game. I’m not building a company to sell. I’m building a company because I want to help people and I want to serve people and I want to do it in the way I want to do it. Right. So, you know, we’ve had many people who’ve I mean, it’s and it’s very flattering, we’ve had customers say they want to invest money in our company. But the thing is, if we take on money, then I wind up working for the investors, I don’t work for our customers and clients and right and right, you know, I want to serve our customers and clients in the best possible way we can’t, I don’t want to say I don’t want my board to say, you know, what, you’ve only grown 40%. This year, you know, or your profit margin isn’t as high as it should be, you know, you need to do something else, that’s not serving the client that’s serving the investor. So actually, if you

Michael Simmons 55:35

take, let’s take money out of the equation, I think we’re on the same page there. And just focus on impact. And so let’s say, impact, or one of the ways I think about it is it’s the number of people you reach times the impact you have per person, that you could have a model where you have a really high impact per person. Like, being a parent, you know, you can, you can never have more impact on one person than if you’re a parent, or somebody who just makes the viral or small change that some people don’t even notice. But it just adds up because it’s reaching so many people. If, how do you think about that? Just, you know, there’s the growth part of the value in growth? Yeah, I interviewed Russ Ruffino. For this podcast, you know, there are $15 million, and they want to reach 100 million, because that means they can reach, you know, X number more people. How do you think about that? Do you ever feel urgency there?

Adam Gilbert 56:25

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, that’s a good question is, is to figure out, you know, the type of impact of that, so when I first started, I was obsessed with making a large impact on a small map people or, to put it another way, you can only make a large vote. That’s I don’t know if that’s true. But I used to think you can only make a large impact on a small people. And, you know, as I think we get, there we go, as we, you know, progressed, I realized, you know, what, you don’t necessarily have to be everyone’s, you know, make a massive impact on each person, you can scale it down a little bit, you know, and have a big impact on a lot of people. I don’t know, I think it comes down to really just defining and it’s obviously very challenging question, what you’re in it for what makes you happy? You know, what your objective is. And for me, it’s always been about helping people and making an impact and transforming their lives. I mean, there’s nothing that makes me happier, besides seeing my family happy than when someone gets from point A to point z. And I think if you truly, like, for me, that’s, that’s truly the case. Now, for someone else. If it’s not, and they’re lying to themselves, you know, then there might be all these, you know, you know, there might be some cognitive dissonance, there might be some, you know, thoughts that enter your mind, then it’s like, well, maybe I should do this. I think you have to really be honest with yourself, and there’s no right or wrong way. You know, I think it’s just defining what, how do you define a successful life, right, so my mom is a teacher is a former teacher, my aunt was a teacher, my grandma is a teacher, like, I like to consider myself a teacher. But I also enjoyed business and building things. So I was very lucky that I was able to marry the two. But making an impact on people is a huge part of my life. And that’s, that’s just something I’ve always wanted to do.

Michael Simmons 58:13

And how did you get clarity on that? Was it just happened naturally through? You mentioned your mom and caddying and those sorts of experiences? Or is there any sort of exercises that you’d recommend for people that you’ve recommended? And it’s really helped them get that clarity. And I’m harping on this a little bit, because for the first part, I talked about tactics. But through my own teaching of other people, I really see that mindset is almost always 80% of it at least or 90%. So I think there’s something to your mindset here that’s really worth drilling into, that forms the foundation for everything else that you’re doing. And without that, the tactics won’t work.

Adam Gilbert 58:49

Yeah. I think I was very lucky in that I worked in corporate America, and I hated it. Right? I could have easily liked it. But I always used to sit in my office in Times Square, staring at this unbelievable view. And I would I would ask myself, like, if someone paid me, you know, $20 million a year to do this job? Would I do it? And like, at that point in my life, I probably would have said, Yeah, I would do it for a year or two, but at most, but I wouldn’t do this for the rest of my life. And I realized right then and there, like, I felt like I was making zero impact. You know, And that, to me, was everything I needed to know, it wasn’t, you know, like, I was like, Oh, you know, sometimes the less people it’s like, would you dig ditches for a million dollars a year? And like, the answer for me is no way. Like, I need a meaning and purpose. In my work like that is so important to me. So like how I make money is critical. And there’s people who just want to make a lot of money and there’s nothing wrong with that. But I think the more experiences you have, especially younger people who you know are just coming out of college and school, etc. Like, sometimes the best thing you realize is what you don’t want to do because you It gets you closer to what you know you want to do I just happen to be very lucky that I realized like early on. Yeah, I mean, it’s it’s a tricky, it’s a tricky thing. I mean, figuring out what you want to do is very tricky. And what’s important to you, of course.

Michael Simmons 1:00:14

Yeah. But I think we left people with a lot of really, really great advice that I think there’s a big opportunity right now that if you’re someone who loves transforming people’s lives, there’s never been a better time to be able to do that than the world we live in right now. And I think you’re a shining example of a way that you could do that, that that’s really fulfilling so. Adam, I’m gonna give you the last word here. Anything you want to leave us with? And also where can people go to learn more about you? And MyBodyTutor

Adam Gilbert 1:00:47

Yeah, thank you very much. I mean, the best way to, you know, find us is go to mybodytutor.com You can find me on all the socials, you can always email me. Yeah, I mean, I guess my last word is, when we talked, we had two very distinct and interesting conversations, as you said, the early part was about the tactics. You know, I think, I would say small as a new big, you know, so try to really, you know, start small, ask yourself, can I see myself doing this? And five years from now? Can I see myself doing this the rest of my life, right, and realize that you don’t have to do everything all at once. So keep that in mind. And then I think when it comes to the other part of our conversation is, you know, really figuring out what you want and being honest with yourself. And I think if you could truly be honest with yourself, and go after that, I mean, I think that’s the ultimate, you know, fulfilment comes and happens. You know, I think when there’s a disconnect between our actions, and our desires on happiness ensues, and when they’re aligned, you know, then then you will feel you know, I think very happy.

Michael Simmons 1:01:54

All right, perfect way to end it. Thank you, Adam.

Adam Gilbert 1:01:57

Thank you.

Outro 1:02:00

Thanks for listening to The Michael Simmons Show. We’ll see you again next time and be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes. If you found value. In today’s episode, we would greatly appreciate a five star rating on your favorite podcast player

The Power of Asking Questions with Spencer Greenberg

Jun 30, 2021 // by michaeld // Podcast // No Comments

Spencer Greenberg is a mathematician, entrepreneur, and the Founder of Clearer Thinking, a company that offers free online tools and training programs to help people change their habits and make better decisions.

Spencer is also the Founder and CEO of Spark Wave, a venture builder that creates socially beneficial software products from scratch. Spencer is the host of the podcast Clearer Thinking, where he explores ideas related to society, technology, science, and self-help.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

Spencer Greenberg shares why questions are so important to him.
How Spencer began using questions for self-reflection and building relationships.
Spencer discusses how his company, Clearer Thinking, helps people create better habits.
How can you train your mind to generate positive thoughts?
Building mental causal models to become a better leader.
Tips for mapping out your schedules and routines.
Spencer shares how he uses Twitter—and how it has enhanced his thinking.
Questions as a form of content for thought leadership.
Building conversation through Spencer’s podcast, Clearer Thinking.
What creates long-term value for thought leadership?
The overlap between truth and value.
The art of storytelling and developing your voice.

In this episode…

Asking questions can be a resource to guide you through life’s decisions and avoid common pitfalls. But what questions should you be asking yourself? And how can you use questions to reach your goals?

Spencer Greenberg is an expert at asking questions to build relationships, find value in life, and self-reflect. Spencer has over 8 years of experience building free online resources and training programs to help others avoid bias, make better decisions, and improve their life.

In this episode of The Michael Simmons Show, host Michael Simmons is joined by Spencer Greenberg, Founder of Clearer Thinking and host of the podcast Clearer Thinking. Spencer shares the reasons why you should ask more questions and how you can use questions to build better habits. His strategies can help you form relationships, decipher the truth, solve problems, and achieve your goals. Stay tuned.

Resources Mentioned in this episode

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by my company, Seminal.

We help you create blockbuster content that rises above the noise, changes the world, and builds your business.

To learn about creating blockbuster content, read my article: Blockbuster: The #1 Mental Model For Writers Who Want To Create High-Quality, Viral Content

Episode Transcript

Intro 0:02

Michael Simmons 0:14

Today, we have one of my close friends joining us, Spencer Greenberg. Spencer is one of the smartest people I know. And also one of the most caring people I know, he got a undergrad degree in math from Columbia University, and then got a PhD in math from NYU, where I went to school. And he has, after that build a quantitative hedge fund company, and that was successful. And now is building apps, which are focused on increasing the quality of life for people from everything from depression, to just thinking routines to make better decisions. And another thing about Spencer is, I love that he’s just really elite learner. And he has a very unique approach to learning, which we’re going to talk about. And he’s one of the best question askers that I’ve seen, do you look on his Twitter, you’ll see that he’s constantly asking questions and predicting the responses. And so today, we’re gonna really talk about one of the fundamental things of thought leadership, which is asking really high quality questions, and so much of being a thought leader stems from asking those questions. So without further ado, I give you Spencer Greenberg. All right, Spencer. Welcome to the podcast. Really, really excited to have you here,

Spencer Greenberg 1:39

Michael, so glad to be here.

Michael Simmons 1:42

So I feel like when we talk, there’s a million things we could talk about. That’s true. But today, I want to talk about a very specific thing that I think you have expertise in that more than anyone else I know. And it’s a really important area. And that area is question. You create applications through Spark Wave, to take people through sequences of questions, to help with depression to help be more creative to make wiser decisions to connect with others. You probably on my feed, you do more questions via Twitter polls than anyone. And now with a podcast, you’re actually asking questions. And so my first question for you is he tell me more of your story in history with questions. And that got you to see them so important.

Spencer Greenberg 2:32

Love it, it’s a question. Question. Yeah, so one way to think about questions is that you’re giving a prompt to your subconscious. Because you generally speaking, when you when you get an answer back from a question, it just kind of pops into your mind what the answer is. And so if you think about your like subconscious mind is sort of a database questions or the way you query that database, and it’s sort of like, if you’re, you know, go, if you’re learning to use Google, well, you have to learn how do you make the right search queries, right? And similarly, to use your mind? Well, you have to learn to make the right search query. So that’s kind of a reframe of questions or the theory of how to search your own mind for answers.

Michael Simmons 3:12

Yes, question on there, I’m gonna be jumping around deeper, but it made me think about this. I’ve been going pretty deep on parts work. There’s all these different disciplines like internal family systems, voice dialoguing, optimal conflict, there’s probably like, I lost about 10 things where you ask yourself different, you’re not just asking yourself a general question to your general subconscious, you are asking a specific part of yourself a question. Or sometimes Marc Andreessen has this idea of like, he has avatars of people, such as like Peter Thiel, on his shoulder, when he he’s solving a problem? He asked the question, how do you think about that when you’re doing question? Do you just do it to the general subconscious, or to a part of your mind that?

Spencer Greenberg 3:59

Great, that’s a that’s a good question. I don’t take those parts too, literally. I think they’re useful metaphors, or it put into the framework that we’ve been talking about search queries, their metadata on the search query, it’s like, you’re giving yourself a question in the style and give me the answer in the style of Peter Thiel, right? Or just say, or, you know, you’re asking yourself a question, but respond from the point of view of the child and myself that is scared and was hurt or whatever. So I think that that that’s it’s basically metadata that changes the way we respond. But I don’t think that those parts are literal, I think that they’re just ways of altering the way that we get a response.

Michael Simmons 4:36

Yeah, it’s interesting, though, because it could give us very different answers. It’s not just absolutely a different style. It’s fundamentally It could even be opposing answers.

Spencer Greenberg 4:44

Right, right. Well, essentially, what I think is going on there is you’re getting your mind to simulate something. So that your your mind is simulate Peter Thiel. So you have like a little mental model of Peter Thiel. It’s obviously much less complex than the actual Peter Thiel. And you’re like, Okay, brain, do a Peter Thiel simulation and then give me the answer. Question or, you know, simulate the part of myself that like, tends to get social anxiety and like, you know, get into that little simulation before you respond. So, you know, I mean, it’s, uh, you know, obviously, there’s a lot of mystery to you know what the brain is actually doing. But I don’t take it too literally that like, there’s actually this childlike part or this,

Michael Simmons 5:20

you know, inside of you. Yeah. How did you get into questions? When did when do you use your first memory of thinking about? Okay, questions are valuable, and I should collect them or ask better questions.

Spencer Greenberg 5:32

Well, one of my ways I got into it was I started thinking about the 32 questions to fall in love that, that set of questions that a researcher had developed with the idea that it creates bonding, and he had done a bunch of experiments, I think he actually even had had a case where people actually fell in love in his lab. And I started thinking about, well, what else can questions be used for? And one thing that became very interesting to me is, what are the best questions for self reflection? So I developed a little experimental protocol, where we would recruit people online, ask them a series of questions, so that we collected hundreds of possible like self reflection questions. And then we would have the person answer them just open ended, you know, write your answer. And then we would have them rate how valuable was experience for answering that question. And this allowed us to assign a score to every question of like, how valuable that people find it to answer. And that allowed us to kind of rank order. And then so we use that to create something we call the life changing questions, which you can do for free on our website, clearerthinking.org. And we also made a really beautiful physical deck of cards you can do with friends and stuff like that. But it’s Yeah, it’s called Life Changing Questions. And it’s, and it’s a whole bunch of questions that maximize the score of like producing value for the answer.

Michael Simmons 6:48

Really interesting. And when you did that, how many questions are there total on that?

Spencer Greenberg 6:53

It depends on the version, we have a lot of different versions. So we have one version that you do with a group, which is certain length that we have another version that you do yourself, and then we have a mini version if you don’t have time. And then we actually have a pen pal mode where you can answer and then it will send your answers to a friend that you choose. And if they answer, you can get their answers back. So Oh,

Michael Simmons 7:10

all different lengths, depending on how much time you have. So did you find that there’s an optimal? So for example, they have the 32 questions to fall in love. Maybe there’s an optimal number where they could have fallen in love with 20 questions or something like that? Did you find anything surprising just in the quantity of questions and how they stacked up in the moment? Or really, they could be separated, you just ask one at a time.

Spencer Greenberg 7:32

The way I think about it is imagine you ask your like most impactful question first, then your second was impactful next. And of course, it’s just an average it can differ per person. But let’s say you, you know, you do your best on average one’s best and average person and so on, you’re gonna get is this curve, where each additional question is a little bit less valuable than the one before because you’ve rank ordered them. Right? And then the the number of questions you ask is literally just a question of like, how far down the curve you want to go, there’s gonna be diminishing marginal turn all the way down, you’re gonna get a smooth curve. And it’s like, well, when did the point you want to cut it out? So I don’t think there really is a right number. It’s just like, when do you when you is the bang for the buck? Not worth it for you anymore?

Michael Simmons 8:08

This is a curiosity question. I guess all of them are. But uh, is there one? What’s the number one question that was ranked the highest if you remember, in a life changing questions?

Spencer Greenberg 8:18

Yeah, I don’t remember it also, like, there were a bunch of there were almost hide. So it’s like, I don’t know if we can really differentiate, but sorry about that. Sorry about that. Just my bell rang.

Michael Simmons 8:27

It’s okay,

Spencer Greenberg 8:28

okay. Okay. Anyways, there was, but I’ll tell you one of my favorites, though. So ranked really well is, what in life gets you truly excited? And the reason I love this question is, first of all, people find it really valuable to answer. But second of all, it’s a way of cutting through the bullshit conversations we so often have, when we are getting to know someone, it’s a little awkward ask and you can kind of figure out a reframing of a different way to ask in different scenarios to make it less awkward. But it basically is like what is important to you? What are you excited about? And as soon as you can figure out what’s exciting to the other person, it just makes conversations dramatically better. And there’s been a bunch of times where I’ve like used a variant on this question in a conversation with someone I just met. And suddenly, their eyes light up, and they start telling me about this thing they’re, like, deeply passionate about, and we’ve just skipped, like, 20 minutes of bullshit conversation. So

Michael Simmons 9:15

talking about the weather or the latest sports figures or something like that. Exactly. Yeah, I really like that. You know, actually, Emerson Spartz, our mutual friend got me to think this way, because he’s, he has this thing about being really against small talk, because he just, he’s really good at but adding all those hours, you know, when everything’s about one thing, he adds it up, you know, across 40 years, and then it’s like, Okay, this is the way I like, but I still feel like it’s helpful to build a relationship, you know, not just jump in. So I like that or the the bridging. Yeah, you know,

Spencer Greenberg 9:48

if you think about small talk, it’s not the small talk is useless, small talk does serve a purpose. For one thing is you’re learning to kind of trust that this person is like, not going to just, you know, do something really weird. So Like, it’s kind of gives you a comfort level with the person. And also, it’s just a familiarity thing. Like by spending time with them getting familiar with them, they tend to breed liking. It also avoids awkwardness, you know, small talk is a way. It’s like a standard way of like not having awkward conversations. But it’s also not optimized. So it’s like it does his goals, but it’s not the best way to do those goals.

Michael Simmons 10:22

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. It’s

Spencer Greenberg 10:24

sort of the easiest way, it’s the easiest way to achieve those goals. So it’s like the lowest effort, lowest energy, you know, lowest difficulty level version of that.

Michael Simmons 10:31

And so going back to your, your, your story of you How long ago was that? I feel like you’ve been right, at least since I’ve known you, you know, through Clearer Thinking. And I feel like you’re always asked questions. How long ago? Was that for you?

Spencer Greenberg 10:45

Yeah, so I can remember we started working on like, cheating question. Maybe it was five years ago, I was certainly interesting question before that. But that was like, really took it to the next level where I was like, I want to systematically study questions. And I made a list of, you know, hundreds of questions for reflection, trying to really understand like, what are the questions trying to do? What are the best questions and so on? And so that took a turn for me?

Michael Simmons 11:05

What do you feel like you understand about questions, having collected hundreds and really thought about them, and also had the opportunity to test them with 1000s of people responding to them? And then reading the questions? What do you understand that others don’t?

Spencer Greenberg 11:18

Yeah, I think that one thing that people don’t necessarily recognize is that for almost any like, important life domain, there’s a set of questions that could potentially help you in it. And so you know, some of the categories I think about are self understanding, learning, figuring out the truth, self improvement, planning, friendship, group bonding, these are all areas where there are questions that will help in that domain. And so the idea of questions, this is the super powerful thing that can be applied almost anywhere, and then it’s about optimizing the right questions for the right goal.

Michael Simmons 11:51

And then, when it comes to actually applying it those like you’ve already done the work about getting the domain, the questions that are most powerful for that domain. Now, do you have them all memorized? And do you kind of naturally use them in the right timing? Or it’s almost basically like creating a new habit? How did you make that into a habit?

Spencer Greenberg 12:09

Well, for some of these sets of questions, what we do is we launch programs on clearerthinking.org trying to ask you the appropriate questions to help you in that domain. For, for example, for big life decisions, we create a tool called the decision advisor, you try, it’s free. And that tool essentially asks you a large number of questions about your decision to help guide you through it and help you avoid common pitfalls. So that’s like a way we can systematize it and make it really easy for people to use the right questions for the right task. But then there’s still a lot of we haven’t implemented yet. There’s still a lot of demands, and we haven’t built a program and they’re there. It’s just, uh, you know, I’m just trying to collect them and keep them in mind.

Michael Simmons 12:47

But how is it for you in your own process? example? Are you using Clearer Thinking all the time? Okay, I picture at some point, they become automatic. And like, you know, when you’re in a group, you’re like, Okay, this question, and you don’t even think about it.

Spencer Greenberg 13:01

Right. So basically, you want to install some form of trigger in your mind, if you can, with the sort of trigger responses, like, I’m in situation x, oh, I can use question Y or Z here like that. That’d be good. You know, and so what like, just to give an example of that, when it comes to questions to help you figure out the truth. Let’s say you’re trying to figure out what’s true about something and you’re leaning towards a certain answer, you know, you’re like, well, I, you know, I think that COVID is has has, you know, a certain level of effect a certain infection fatality rate, right? Like, you have a belief about that. You’re trying to figure out the truth. There’s a set of questions you can use there, and you want the fact that you’re like, on this search for the truth to trigger the right set of questions at the right moment. And so they’re one of the questions might be, well, what evidence can I find against my belief? That’s an excellent question, in a truth gathering mode to have triggered that moment, if you don’t think to ask the question, that moment is not gonna help you.

Michael Simmons 13:52

How do you do that? I feel like sometimes it’s a trigger, like waking up in the morning, or, you know, you can set an alarm for it. But then that’s when it’s an emotion it takes a while to do it. Is there a way that you think about triggering it when you feel an emotion or? Okay, am I normally not going through life to think about Okay, I’m trying to find truth here. Although Yeah.

Spencer Greenberg 14:15

But you’re trying to find truth you just made that you just like have not had that like trigger installed of like, I am in truth searching mode, therefore, I should do these things. Okay. So we’ve done two different projects trying to get at this where I think is is very important question, how do you trigger people to have the right thought at the right time? One of them is on Clear, again, the clearerthinking.org website, we have a project called happiness habits. And what we do is we try to get you to associate an object in your environment with mental maneuver. And so in that case, we do gratitude, we do mindfulness, etc. And we basically put you through a training program to try to get you associate an object. So for example, if you say, you say to us, oh, yeah, I will see a mirror like about 15 times a day, right? Perfect, we’re gonna try to get it so that every time you see him here, you’re gonna, you’re gonna have a grateful thought. And so these, these are kind of non directed, yes, they are non directed triggers, they’re like, you’re just trying to increase the rate of a certain type of thought. But it’s not that important when you do it. And we actually ran a study where we had people, we had a control group, and we had an intervention group where they were enrolled in this program, and we tracked their happiness for three days, people were actually significantly happier. During that three day period, when they were enrolled in this, we’re triggering these like thoughts of gratefulness and mindfulness, etc. So that’s like the generic version, then if we get into the more specific version, we’re working on a project, it’s still very early stage, but it’s called Thought Saver. And Thought Saver, one of the goals of it is to allow you to instal these triggers. And so we’re basically trying to develop technology to make this a lot easier to instal the right have the right thought at the right moment based on race. Yeah.

Michael Simmons 15:49

Is there a, what are the objects for you? Or what are the things for you that for now might be automatic? But are there ones that have systems that have worked personally Well, for you?

Spencer Greenberg 16:00

Yes, the one that’s worked well, for me is just trying to memorize the cognitive biases at like a deep level. So for example, understanding, not just like what the bias is, so that I could explain it. But like having generated a bunch of examples of each bias, trying to think about when I might fall for the bias, and that when you’re kind of attacking the understanding of multiple levels simultaneously, like, Where am I going to see that? And this is where questions come in. It’s like, Where am I most likely see is bias in my own life? Like, that’s a great question to ask or were in the past, would it could I could I have used my knowledge with this bias, and you’re trying to tie it into your like neural network in such a way that then then that when you see that pattern in real life, like the thought comes to mind, like, Oh, wait, this might be this bias? And then there’s questions you can ask yourself at that point. So let’s take, for example, the planning fallacy. The planning fallacy is a very common issue that occurs where people underestimate how long a project will take, or how many, how many resources it will cost, etc. There’s various reasons for why this occurs, but it’s super common. So what you want to do there is you want to install the pattern of the planning fallacy, like connecting it in with all these questions like, when am I likely to see this when we’re this occurred during the past, etc, etc. And then when you’re going about your real life, and you’re about to make an estimate for how long a project will take, or how much a project will cost, suddenly, you want to get into like to that that trigger occurs without you even, you know, having having to do anything about it, just like oh, planning fallacy, and now you have your follow up questions. Okay. This seems like it might be the planning fallacy. Do you have follow up questions like, okay, am I sure that I’ve accounted for all of the different things that need to be done, have I, you know, put in a buffer for like, unknown unknowns, etc, etc.

Michael Simmons 17:39

I really like that. So the way I’m associating in my head is, is a stimulus but and there’s network that a stimulus could be in charge external. So it’s just a physical object. But it could be internal, that you’ve just planted this in your head such that when it happens, your mind just associates the two. And then I think about it as a network is that you’re trying to network in these things into your life. It could be physically or and not just one Association, but multiple associations. So if you ask the question, Where, where have I seen this in my life? Or where might I see this, those sorts of things, start to wire it to almost look for it, like, the reticular Activation System, almost of most of this reality we’re ignoring, but you start to look for it in your head.

Spencer Greenberg 18:28

Yeah, really common misconception is that you don’t really need to know, things that can be memorised, because you could just look them up. And if you think about that, that idea that like, Oh, well, I could just look this thing up. What you don’t realise is that you will not even think to look it up in most cases. So you know, stuff like, you know, easy examples, like the Pythagorean Theorem, because yes, you could always look up the Pythagorean Theorem, but if you haven’t encoded in your mind, the pattern of when the Pythagorean Theorem is needed, like, Oh, I know, two sides of a triangle, I’m trying to, you know, calculate something else about the triangle. If you haven’t encoded that pattern, you will never think to look up the Pythagorean theorem. And therefore, even though you could, in theory, look it up. It’s not gonna help you. So it’s actually not the formula you need. It’s the pattern union.

Michael Simmons 19:13

Hmm. And the pattern is where it works when it’s relevant. Exactly.

Spencer Greenberg 19:19

Yeah, exactly. Interesting. The Pythagorean Theorem is, you know, it’s an example where it’s clear cut, but it’s not something that most people would ever actually needed in real life. But you know, you think about so many self help techniques, they have exactly the same property where it’s like, you need to know the pattern when the technique is useful. And then maybe you can look it up at that moment, you know, if you’re not in a rush or anything like that, but if you miss the pattern, you’re never going to think to use it.

Michael Simmons 19:44

How, you know, let’s just take a typical day for you, you know, you’re working, you’re having meetings, you’re reading a book, let’s say or doing something going online, and how is reflection built into that? So let’s just assume you have all the questions now. What does that look for you? How many questions? Are you deliberately asking yourself? And then how much time are you spending in one?

Spencer Greenberg 20:06

Right? So a lot of it is driven by triggers. So I’ll be working with my teams. And one of the questions I try to help them with every week is like, Okay, were there any problems that came up in your work? Do you have any blockers, and then those often generate, like, as soon as you know, a lot of times, it’s just oh, there’s no big deal. Nothing happened, really, of note. But sometimes it’s like, Oh, I got stuck on this thing. Okay. And that’s when, okay, now, a new set of questions come out of like, how do you get someone unblocked? How do you get to the root cause? Something that I have been thinking about more and more lately, is that to solve problems, you have to build a little mental causal model of the problem. And so questions come into play very deeply, because the questions enable you to build a little causal model. So let me just give you an example. Let’s say an employee says, Oh, yeah, you know, sorry, I like I didn’t get that stuff done. I know, I said, we get it done. Right. Okay. Well, that’s it, that is a potential problem, maybe it’s no big deal. Maybe it’s a fluke. But let’s say this happened a few times now. Now, there’s a lot of different possibilities of like, what’s really going on. And, you know, I think a kind of, you know, mid skill level boss will just kind of put pressure on the employee not to do it again. And that might work. But the problem is, if that person doesn’t know how to make it not happen again, it will totally fail, it was a stress the person out and fail and make their job, you know, make them less happy. So I think a more skilled boss will actually start asking questions, to try to build a little mental causal model of like, why Okay, why is this person not getting their work done? What’s going on? I have different hypotheses. And my questions are gonna help me sort between them, I build this little model. And once I have the model, now I have a prediction about what the right intervention is.

Michael Simmons 21:42

Yeah, really interesting. That’s almost like a if then our branching thing where you ask the initial questions for diagnosis. And then once you have that, it could, depending on the path, it could lead to different questions. Exactly. I’ve really gotten deep on Ray Dalio knows that his approach to problems, have you have you done that before?

Spencer Greenberg 22:06

You know, I am not such a principles based person. I’ve been thinking about this recently. Like, what is a principle really, like, I’ve been pondering this and I have come to thinking on this, is it a principle is sort of a pre computed answer to a question. So it’s like, it’s like, let’s say you have a principle of like, always tell the truth, which is something that I aspire to do. Well, that principle is really a precomputed answer to anytime you have a question of like, should I tell the truth? It’s like, my principal says, yes. So I’m just gonna do it. I don’t have to recompute an answer for each scenario, right. And so the interesting thing to me about principals is that like, so what problem are they really trying to solve? But one, they can reduce cognitive burden? Because instead of having to try to answer the question, each time it comes up, you already have a pre computed answer to they can sometimes overcome weakness of will. Because like, maybe you in this particular case, you have, like, you know, you really want to not tell the truth, because like, it’s less stressful for your something. But like, if you could just learn to follow your principles, like a habit, you can actually be like, Oh, well, that’s my principle. That’s the thing I live by. So I’m just gonna do it anyway. And the third thing is that principles can help solve coordination mechanisms. Because even if a bunch of people don’t necessarily agree with each other on every point, they might be agree on principles. And then if they agree on the principles, they reach a consensus on the principles, then when they’re making decisions, they can all use the same decision making like elements.

Michael Simmons 23:27

Hmm, I’m gonna put a marker in there cuz I want to go deeper. But if I share her on that, then we’re gonna go away from the the, but I was going at the for. So for Ray Dalio, he, you know, he has this idea of problems of just, this is kind of outside of his principles work, but Okay, okay. Yeah, logs, prot, he logs problems. So when employees feel an emotion during the day, typically, let’s say really angry or something like that, there’s both that’s a trigger for them to log. Okay, who are they around? What are they working on? Or if a problem happens? You log it, and then you reflect on it. Okay, what were the root causes of it? What were the symptoms of it? What’s the severity of it? And then once you have the root cause, then you go towards, okay, what can we do to solve it? But it sounds very similar to what you’re what you’re talking about there as well.

Spencer Greenberg 24:21

Yeah, totally. So if you think about patterns, triggering questions, like one of the best triggers for questions is there’s a problem. Right?

Michael Simmons 24:29

Right, right. Yep. So there’s a problem is what is one trigger? Okay, so that’s one that you look at in your, your daily going through your day, when you’re talking to employees, asking about if there’s any problems and then helping to build a causal model, and then do the experimentation to solve it. What are other areas where you apply in your day to day life?

Spencer Greenberg 24:50

So another good one is planning. So you’re about to begin, you know, making a plan to you know, trying to achieve some goal and that’s a great time for Questions. And so, you know, simple questions like what could go wrong with this plan? Another question that sort of can work even better, is you do the pre mortem technique where you say, okay, actually assuming that this plan fails, why, right? Like, like, let me ensure you’re going back to the search engine analogy, you’re giving a query to your brain, like this thing failed, now generate the reason, right. And it will usually come up with some reasons of why it failed. I also use this when I’m recruiting CEOs, like I’ll ask people that know the CEO, well, the potential CEO well, like, imagine that this person started a company and it failed, but not for the reasons that companies usually fail. Instead, it fails for a reason that relates to this person, what do you think the reason is?

Michael Simmons 25:42

Yeah, it is kind of amazing. I actually really loved the pre mortem as well, question. But it is amazing that you can actually predict your own failure, you know, it’s that guy. But even like I ask is this, I love asking this when people are setting habits of Okay, you said you’re going to, you know, read this amount per week or write this amount per week? how likely are you to actually do that? And you can ask, that said, if it’s like 50%, then you could be like, Okay, what would it take to get higher, but I always found it interesting that we can already you would think that if we knew something wasn’t going to work, then we would do something about it. But it’s almost like we have to ask ourselves a question and to fully hit that subconscious, the

Spencer Greenberg 26:26

I think, yeah, man, I think it’s important to understand that there’s many ways to know something. And so like, you can know it in some like, deep, intuitive way, but had not have raised it to your system to like, you know, conscious awareness. And so these questions can like pull it up from the low level of the hive, like you’re saying, and then now that it’s in your, like, conscious working memory, now you can interact with it and explore it and make a plan and so on. Hmm.

Michael Simmons 26:51

And do you do when you think about planning, even talking about like the daily planning, do you apply this with just okay, here’s what my, my day is gonna look like. And then you ask yourself the pre mortem question.

Spencer Greenberg 27:02

So I’m more of a person who likes to design my schedule, to rather than, like, each day, make a plan. That makes sense. So I have my schedule has like a certain, you know, fixed element to it every week. And then that’s kind of like, yeah, so I guess you could say it’s almost like pre pre planned rather than having to make a daily plan.

Michael Simmons 27:21

Right. Right. That makes sense anymore. On the weekly basis, you might be asking the plan. Exactly. Exactly. And do you have a routine where you do what to do the week planning at a certain time or day? Or is it just happened over the weekend? At some point?

Spencer Greenberg 27:35

Well, no, it’s for me, it’s like, it’s largely like preset for months. Like basically, I kind of have my, my, you know, work schedule already mapped out and it’s like the same each week. So just to give you a little clearer on that. So for example, Monday mornings are I always leave open for like, working on, on anything that needs to prepare me for the week. So that’s just like open block of free work time. And then I’ll have certain times when I do cold phone calls with my teams. And then I’ll have other blocks where that are where I leave open. So I have more time to work on, like longer term strategy and things like that.

Michael Simmons 28:12

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So you’re not planning exactly what you’re going to do in the blocks, but you will plan out the block. Okay, so So far, we’ve talked about problem and planning. And then, are there other areas, let’s say, let’s just focus on the unit of a day where you’re like, Okay, like for you, is it ever like, okay, here’s my half hour chunk at the end of the day, where I’m going to reflect or I’m going to talk with my partner, and we go through these questions every day. Is, is that regimented? Or is it more seamless in the day? Where it’s just like a quick question at one point in the day,

Spencer Greenberg 28:47

I think that the worst situations where you don’t ask questions, the next level, is where you like, have explicit time. Like, I’m gonna ask these questions these times. And then the ultimate version of this is like, the pattern in the world triggers the question in your mind at the right moment, when it’s ideal. And then there’s still be some like set aside planning time maybe like maybe an annual review or something like that. But like the, to me, the thing to aspire to is like to actually get it to the point where the world triggers the right question for that action. However, I think just building in time for question is like a great way to get up to that I

Michael Simmons 29:24

really like that it’s similar with mental models are in most things learning, you have to be deliberate first set aside time. And then the goal is you use it automatically. And one thing you’ve done that I find really interesting is just, you’re just you’ve really started being active this year on Twitter, and then just doing, you know, typical posts of content posts. And then you switch toward asking a ton of questions, then, like a really high volume of questions. And then also you have your prediction of the responses. How do you tell me more of the story behind that and how it’s been going? Well, you’ve learned Yeah,

Spencer Greenberg 30:00

I’ve been really enjoying it. Yeah, like, so yeah, I basically, just in terms of questions, every morning, I asked myself, what’s the topic I think is valuable. And then once I pick the topic, then I either will try to tweet about the most valuable thing I can think of about that topic, or I’ll tweet a question about it. And so so I tricked you. And if I don’t think of something in the morning, then I’ll try and think of it, you know, some point throughout the day, but that, to me, has been like really valuable. Like, I think it’s weird for people to say like Twitter made them smarter, but actually, like Twitter has actually enhanced my thinking, because it forces me to do this, like exercise that is so valuable, which is, what is the most important thing I can say about this topic. And it forces you to like extract, extract, like your knowledge of it and squeeze it down into 280 characters. So I, I found that really valuable. And also, it’s increased the volume of ideas, because it’s like now I’m, you know, now I’m actually generating even more ideas than was before. So I like that a lot. In terms of polls, basically, once I got a large enough Twitter following, I could start getting a you know, reasonable sample size of my polls. And so then, it became a way of just saying, I’m curious about this thing about humans. What, what do you what do people say about this? And I also, I’ve already asked my Twitter followers about their demographics, like their age and gender and where they live and stuff like that. So I already have a sense of like, Who am I asking, right? Because that’s important, you know, not different people are gonna give you different answers. But I already know a command says, I know who I’m asking. And so now, anytime I’m curious about human nature, in any domain, I can just throw it out as a Twitter question a few minutes. But then what I realized is that to get the most out of that, I should actually have an anticipation. So then I started actually building, almost all of my Twitter polls actually make my prediction, which I obscure, so it’s not so easy to

Michael Simmons 31:45

Yeah, I like it. I do these characters where you have to really squint and read upside down to be able to actually see it.

Spencer Greenberg 31:52

Exactly. And so the point of that is to try to improve my learning on this even more, which is like, my brain thought the answer was this. Now I read the poll answers. And I see it’s different. And now I can do that update between what I used to think it was true and what’s actually true, which I think makes it much better for learning than merely reading the answer. Because when you merely read the answer a lot of time your brain is like, Oh, that makes sense, you know, even if it’s actually not what you would have predicted?

Michael Simmons 32:16

Hmm. And are there Have there been areas where you’ve been really surprised where that come top of your mind that you’ve learned from polls that like I actually, this is very different. Let me look into this. My belief Yeah.

Spencer Greenberg 32:29

So one of them that really surprised me is, unfortunately, Twitter only has four answer options you can get for a poll, just as frustrating. But one of them I asked about which of the four negative feelings they feel the most often. And I was quite surprised that people said sad was the was number one, one, I would not have thought that. So that’s something I want to investigate more, because I guess I didn’t think of sadness as being like, such a hugely prevalent emotion. I guess partly probably, you know, we all have this bias towards thinking that other people are more like we are. And so it’s pretty, it’s probably because I don’t feel that often I was sort of surprised by that. Yeah.

Michael Simmons 33:06

Really interesting. So I guess what, I guess what, as I’m listening to you, it’s like, one thing is, you’re seeing, we always assume everyone’s like us. So you’re just seeing where you’re unique, which is that’s valuable on multiple levels and ways and helps you communicate to people better and also just realize your own unique strengths or weaknesses. And then it also is really interesting, because it gives you a hunch, or something a thread you can pull on for research yourself as someone who loves to learn and floor things against you new avenues for exploration. whenever you can.

Spencer Greenberg 33:40

Yeah, whenever you’re surprised it’s a it shows is an opportunity to learn. That’s like essentially the emotion of surprises, like your prediction of reality to not meet reality. So you could have just been like unlucky could have just been a weird fluke clicks. And as it happens, but more often it’s actually shows that there’s something wrong with your model of the world. And so so one thing by doing these tweets and making prediction, if I’m surprised that means they’re trying to learn there now maybe I learned it just directly reading the poll, or maybe I have to go research the thing or maybe I have to go do a more robust study, but it shows as a learning opportunity.

Michael Simmons 34:09

What have you learned about asking questions as a result of you have, you know, hundreds of people answer each poll, has it improved your question asking and if so how?

Spencer Greenberg 34:18

It has because was I’ve seen like sort of every misinterpretation. So it made me so one thing to note is that if someone is trying to get a certain answer from a poll, they, there’s a pretty good chance that if they’re savvy, they’ll be able to get that answer they want, because there are many ways to word things, and they’re wordings that will make something look good or bad. So for example, let’s say you want to make it seem like people are against gun control, you could be like, do you think that that the people’s constitutional rights or gun ownership should be removed? And people are going to be more aversive to that? Because like, people believe in the Constitution, right? Whereas if you say, should people be able to buy any gun they want anytime they want, then people are going to be more opposed to that, because like, even people who are fan of guns honestly think that just like it should be no holds barred. Anything goes, You know, I mean? So someone who’s like trying to get a certain answer can manipulate wording. But if you’re trying to figure out the truth, which hopefully you’re trying to do, then you have to think very carefully about which wording actually gets me the truest answer to my actual question. And so that’s just something I didn’t I don’t have like broad takeaways other than to say it takes a lot of practice to get your wording to actually match what you’re intending to convey and actually get the answer to the question you thought you’re asking, rather than just a question that other people thought you asked?

Michael Simmons 35:36

Do you keep a list of questions? And then once you have a question, do you spend, let’s say, 10 minutes refining the question, or I know I one post I liked from James Clear, he was saying for how to succeed on Twitter, and one of them was, after you’re finished the post, spend an extra 10 minutes trying to refine it. And just and during that time, you could do things like making it less leading. How’s that for you? Your process with questions?

Spencer Greenberg 35:59

Yeah, exactly. I usually make a quick first draft. And then it’s, it’s well, fitting into the tweet is also really challenging. For complex questions, or philosophical questions. But then, yeah, going back to reading it carefully, trying to think is this actually clear? How can I make it clear? You know, so, you know, this is this idea that I think you and I both believe in, which is that, if you can make the best version of the thing in the world, it’s just dramatically more likely to succeed than if you make kind of like the second best or fifth best. Yeah, and like, and it’s worth investing the time doing it well. And, you know, I think that’s a really powerful Good idea. But there’s also a micro version of that idea, which is that like, if you spend an extra 10 minutes refining your tweet, and you can actually make it like the best tweet anyone seen on that particular topic, then it’s much more likely to do well than if it’s just like, the third best sermon seen on the topic. So it doesn’t it. So it’s sort of like a lower version of the bar, because oh, it’s just a tweet, you’re not gonna spend three hours on it. But you can still try to make it the best tweet your audience has ever seen about that thing?

Michael Simmons 37:00

Yeah. I like that. Yeah. For blockbuster. I’ve also updated my philosophies before, I used to feel like it has to be comprehensive. But I think something that blockbuster could be a quote, that really just is the most simple capturing of that idea that really resonates and spreads. So I like that. And it’s interesting of just looking, you know, thinking about thought leadership, and we all have this platform where hundreds of millions of people, even billions are actually fairly regularly creating content that questions are, I think, I’ve noticed across Facebook and Twitter, that they get a lot of engagement. So which makes sense, because when people answer it, then that creates a comment, which is a signal, there’s engagement. How do you think about questions as a form of content for thought leadership and the role that could play?

Spencer Greenberg 37:53

Yeah, so another thing to think about when I’m writing questions, you know, especially you know, if I’m putting on a tweet is like, what is gonna be valuable to the person responding? Because there’s really two motivations for them to answer the question, and one is the value they get from the process of reflection. The second is the interest in seeing the answers of others, right? Because they don’t see it until they answer it. So those are the two draws to work with and you want to deliver, ideally, both but at least one of the two Otherwise, why would people answer it?

Michael Simmons 38:21

Right, I could see a third one of just some form of self expression. Like you just

Spencer Greenberg 38:26

that’s up there anonymous. So yeah, it’s still maybe you still maybe people will get value out of that? Yeah.

Michael Simmons 38:33

Yeah, it’s really interesting of just I could see somebody in the future, just that’s all they do is just they’re really good at asking questions. And, you know, you want to follow that person, because following them has all the benefits that you talked about that helps you plan things and makes you smarter. You want to share the questions with friends, and because you see that somebody’s just being that’s their thing.

Spencer Greenberg 38:54

Well, Ayla, if you’ve heard of Ayla, yeah, he is the master of asking questions on Twitter. And I believe she’s asked 1500 questions at this point. She has a spreadsheet of every one she’s ever asked.

Michael Simmons 39:05

Wow, that’s really cool. Yeah, I’ve seen in the posts that you’ve also talked about her as an inspiration for asking questions on Twitter and making that part of your

Spencer Greenberg 39:13

Yeah, she definitely inspired me on the Twitter front for in terms of the value of asking questions.

Michael Simmons 39:19

And then now you’re becoming a professional. question asker in another way, where you have your own podcast? What’s it been like for you asking? Asking questions via podcast? And have you learned anything deeper about questions that way?

Spencer Greenberg 39:35

Yes, that’s really interesting. Because in my podcast, I try to not make it an interview, I try to make it like a, the, the My favorite kind of conversation. So it’s like a fun conversation you have with a friend about an important idea where you’re like building on each other. And should that’s, that’s what I try to do. But still asking questions is, of course essential to that, right, because like, you have to get the conversation started. You have to like pull out of this person. And there are times I’m frustrated myself, because I know this person has a really interesting say about this. And somehow, I didn’t fully get the full value like of what they had to say, because I didn’t, I didn’t ask it in the right way. And I think one of the interesting things is that people don’t remember everything they’ve ever like, written on a topic. So it’s like, if you have someone you’re like, Oh, I know. They wrote this great blog post in Memphis, and you just throw a question at them. They actually might like, something nearly as interesting as the thing. He said. He was like, wait. Yeah, yeah. So. So terms of asking good questions, I think a big part of it is trying to make it as easy as possible for the respondent to say something that’s valuable to your audience. And I think one way to do so my preferred way to do that with my podcast is to actually ask my guests, what are the four or five most important things that you want to talk about? Do Wait, so basically, what are the ideas that matter to you? And so by basically, they should, they should be like super enthusiastic and ready to go, because like, they’ve told me this is like one of the most important things for them to talk about.

Michael Simmons 40:59

That’s a really I remember that when I was on your podcast is that and those really helped me because I, there’s certain ideas, I’m just kind of think about it as a bell curve of excitement for ideas, that beginning part of the curve, you know, you’re just like, not really excited, but then you get excited and something triggers you and explore it more. And sometimes, you become less excited as you go along. But other times, you get really more excited. But then as you learn more about it, then you kind of reach it starts declining, where you’re like, Okay, I’ve mastered this, I’ve integrated into my life, and I’m on to the next thing. So finding people where they’re at the peak of something is an interesting art. And I feel like your questions help. Do that. Right there. Like peak excitement.

Spencer Greenberg 41:39

Yeah. So yeah, so I guess I didn’t make this clear. When a guest is going to come on, I have this huge list of questions for them. And it’s the man it’s a mental list of questions. Because basically, it’s a list of questions about what you know, what are the things that you, you think, are most important to discuss? And so I try to help them get it in many different ways. You know, for example, asking, like, What’s something you believe that others don’t? So that’s like a classic, you know, classic question, but also questions like, you know, what’s the idea you use your life that other people don’t use? What’s something that you’ve changed your mind about, that you think is important? You know, so there’s like, many, many different ways to help them stimulate, like, what’s the most important thing for them to talk about?

Michael Simmons 42:17

Yeah. Okay, so another area I was excited to talk with you about with the questions was, there’s this certain type, everyone says, Okay, what are the best practices with questions, you want to ask open ended questions? And, you know, what do you believe that others don’t. But I what I’ve noticed, I don’t know the name of it, but there’s almost like visualization questions that are out there. So and I sometimes I see patterns in them. So one of them is kind of like a Dickens style pattern. of, I’ve seen this in transformational work, if you Charles Dickens, Christmas Carol, where there’s the ghost of Christmas, past, present, and future. So you have people visualize, okay, if you keep on following the same patterns you have right now that are limiting you, where does that take you in five years? 10 years, okay. And then 10 years, you’re this age, what is what’s happening in your life because of that, and then you then you talk about your with all these, you know, if you get that confidence, and you start doing those things in your business, or writing, publishing, every day, for years, work at that lead, and then it sets a frame where you answer very differently. And I’ve also heard another example that a friend told me wasn’t more of an elevator one, where for thought leaders where you have your current self, and you take it, you’re in a building, you take an elevator down, and you meet, the door opens. And there’s the cell from you, if five years ago, before you had this big insight that made you who you are today, but you don’t the doors gonna close in a second? Do you only have something you can only tell them something within 30 seconds or something? There’s a long elevator, I guess the doors open for a while. What would you say? And so something about the visualization part of it, pulls new things out. And I was curious if you’ve explored that at all. Yeah,

Spencer Greenberg 44:06

I think that’s a really good point. So first of all, going back to the sort of search engine analogy, like a question is like, give me a query to your subconscious. The nature of the subconscious is not inherently verbal. Like your subconscious represents concepts in sort of like in some pure form, it’s not in words. And so the output of the subconscious could be words, but it could just be a visualization. Or it could be a scent even like smell, right? You could ask your mind like, what is orange smell like? And then it will like, try to answer it with a scent. So it is really motor multimodal. And I think that that’s really what’s going on is like, partly, it’s that you can query it visually, like, what is my life, like, let me imagine my life, if I keep the certain patterns that’s like a visual query. So that’s a, that’s a really powerful concept. But there’s another thing that’s going on there, which is that you can use visualizations to make something more visceral. So, for example, the classic trolley problem, you know, from philosophy, right, very often repeated, it’s like, oh, you know, you The train is going down the track, and it’s gonna run over three people on the track, but you can flip the switch, so it runs and runs over one person, should you do it, and people will give a kind of answer. But if you imagine you are actually standing there, and you actually see the train coming, and you have 30 seconds to make a decision, and you see three people that are about to get hit. And then you look to see if you can divert the track and there’s one person and you like, look at them in the eye and like on the switch means you’re literally killing this person. Like that’s actually very, very different. And the abstract, your verbal description, and answering, it doesn’t really take us to there, and isn’t necessarily an accurate reflection of what you would actually do. But by trying to vividly imagine it, you can probably get closer to what you would actually do, maybe not all the way there but closer. And so I think that’s the second element of visualization is it can actually make things more realistic based on like our true behavior.

Michael Simmons 46:03

Um, I could also see it being you know, if the goal partly is to trigger certain things in your day or emotions, to a question, I could see it being helpful there as if you’re imagining, like, let’s say, walking through your day, the next planning meeting, and you know, your partner says something, and then you ask this question, that could probably wire it deeper.

Spencer Greenberg 46:22

Absolutely. And one visualization trick I do with planning is like, let’s have a big project. I tried to actually visualize all the different steps. Like, okay, I this has to happen, this has to happen this, and what that what I find really powerful about that is, it’s a great way to realize that there were missing steps, because then you’re like, starting to imagine some duties. And you’re like, wait, that doesn’t make any sense, because I didn’t do that thing. So I wouldn’t have that thing at that point. And like, you know, just as a simple example, imagine, like, you have a bunch of errands you have to run today. And they’re kind of complicated, and you have to get this thing and bring it there. It’s like, if you actually imagine doing each of the steps, you’ll realise that like, Oh, actually, I should do that before this and not the other way around. Whereas you might not just thinking about it intellectually, you might not realize that,

Michael Simmons 47:04

right? Thinking about intellectually sometimes even gives the feeling like you understand it. So that could be reasoning, we don’t actually probe it deeper, but I really liked that I just kind of man, it makes me really excited. And then also feel overwhelmed. I feel like there’s so many opportunities to ask better questions at the right time. At one point, I bought like seven journals with the intention of, Okay, I’m going to put one next to my bed. And that’s going to be when I wake up, and then give me for one thing and other other ones is surprise journal. I think I just shoot off way too much upfront on it, you know, but I could see, if somebody were just getting started asking better questions, and logging it in their own life for their let’s say, to learn better? What would you recommend?

Spencer Greenberg 47:55

Yeah, so for learning in particular, questions are very valuable. So they’re, I would, I would say, the kind of ideal trigger is like, you’ve just learned something new, like, let’s say you spent, you know, an hour reading something, or, you know, just learn learn about a new idea. So, one question that I think is really valuable is like, try to explain this, what would I say to explain this to someone? And like, some people like to use the query of like, a smart, 12 year old? How would you explain it to a smart 12 year old? because it forces you to, like, get rid of all the bullshit words and like, you know, complicated ways of saying things and just say, focus on like, what is the actual idea? Or, you know, use my method, which is like, I call it tweeting the core where you say, what’s the word is like, the most valuable part of this, you could explain 280 characters. And then also, we talked about or mentioned this a little bit, but like, how do you tie it in to your behavior? It’s like, so you can ask the question, what could you use? When could you have used this idea in your past? Like, if you had known this the past, when would you have used it? And then similarly, you can say, well, in my future, when can I imagine using this concept, and because the purpose there is to try to tie it in, show that you begin to actually think of it at the right moment when you need it. So I think those are all ways to make the learning actually stick a lot better. And it’s kind of incredible the amount of learning we waste because we don’t take like five minutes to integrate it. So we like read a whole book and then like five months later, we can’t remember anything about it because we never integrate the information in or like into our neural structures. One other last question I mentioned for learning is, what are their idea? is this related to that I already know. Oh, right, right. Yeah.

Michael Simmons 49:27

Really interesting. Actually, this is also inspired by Emerson. And then I made it my own as well. But I’ve called it the HA hack, though. Number one, whenever you’re reading something you the H stands for highlight, you get to that highlight point where something is interesting enough that you would just highlight it, you might not even know why. That’s a good point to pause. And then ask yourself, how would I apply this in different areas of my life? So it’s very similar to contextually applying it? But I actually really like adding an E for explain, try to explain it to someone else, huh?

Spencer Greenberg 50:07

Yeah, totally. It was when you when you try to explain it, it’s kind of like that, we were talking about where you like visualize a plan to find the gaps. As soon as you try to explain something, you realise what you don’t know about it most of the time, because you’re trying to explain it and you just hit a gap. You’re like, Oh, wait, how does that thing connect to that other thing? Yeah. Yeah, this

Michael Simmons 51:23

is really interesting. They both what they shared in common is that questions can help you find gaps in your, your thinking,

Spencer Greenberg 50:31

exactly one of the most valuable things that I found to do with entrepreneurs, because like, how often have entrepreneurs reach out and say, I can tell you about my idea and get your feedback? Is, I get them to tell me, I basically asked for Who is this product going to solve what problem at one moment in their life. So it’s like, you know, to describe it in the level of detail of like, you know, person x is, is walking down the street, and they would have done why but because of your product, they now do z and that’s how they’re better off as you’re just basically trying to get them to like, give me this incredibly concrete visualization, like a particular person being benefit in a particular way, that particular time. And what I usually find happens when I get tried to get them, this is one of two things it is for early stage startups, one of two things happens, either there’s a gap in their plan, like it’s like, oh, wait, I guess we need to do this thing that we hadn’t thought about. Or they actually don’t know, they actually just don’t know who they’re trying to solve what problem for what time, it turns out, their idea is, like more abstract. And so this is like that is the best thing I found to do. If I only have 10 minutes with entrepreneur, I try to do this this exercise. So

Michael Simmons 51:36

yeah, fascinating. So so I feel like some themes we’re hitting on are one is this embodiment of trying to get into that specific situation. And that really helps you think maybe more accurately to how would be in that situation to be for you, be for a customer. And then also this idea of exemplifying similar to visualizing, but it’s another way of just seeing yourself use it in different places. And disconnecting this abstract idea to lots of places and things. So it’s a rich network.

Spencer Greenberg 52:10

Yeah, exactly. You can get this weird effect where knowledge gets like isolated its own little network. You know, it’s like, I think this happens often when people like learning about parts of the brain is like, Well, you know, they imagine this picture of the brain, and then they’ve got this part, and it connects that part and this guy, but it’s like, it doesn’t tie into any of the other stuff they know. So they can’t actually use it for anything. Yeah, I

Michael Simmons 52:29

think about it as, let’s say role, like, in terms of the picture of the world map, you picture different countries, and then there’s connections between those. I’m trying to build a city in my mind, where people are just lots of things are thinking, versus I think it’s very easy to get something where you have almost different fiefdoms. And there’s no triggers to them. So it’s almost like they’re orphaned in their, like rural areas, or not a lot of lights connecting them.

Spencer Greenberg 52:53

That’s a great metaphor, I like it

Michael Simmons 52:55

So another thing is, it’s interesting, we’re going through many different ways to look at questions. So another way to think about questions is, how do you answer them? So you could think in your head, you could tell somebody your answer, you could tell, I should keep voice notes for myself. I think that’s right, writing is a big one to writing yourself. But then you can write it like I have a whiteboard over here, I’ll answer differently than if I have a small piece of paper answer differently than if I have a laptop. So I feel like how we answer actually influences a lot. How do you think about that?

Spencer Greenberg 53:32

But these days, when I’m trying to answer a question, I usually want to be able to share it with others, because it just magnifies the value. So I often frame it as like I’m writing an essay. And often when I started an essay, I have like vague ideas about where I want to say, but I don’t really know exactly what I want to say. And usually it’s an exploration of a topic. So for just for example, when I did recently is like, what does racism mean? And so I read these two books, they both talk about racism, I thought a bunch about it, I thought about all the different like times I’ve heard people talk about racism, and I realized is that there’s like this huge number of different definitions of racism. And actually, one of the things that’s confusing people so much today is that people are using different definitions and talking past each other. So out of all of that, I was like, Okay, let me condense this into something that I can share with other people. And that’s sort of like how I structured my learning path was to be able to answer the question for others. Hmm.

Michael Simmons 54:26

So I looked at it similarly, why I coined a term explanation effect. So the fact that explaining things, helps you understand it better. And I look at it as a pyramid, the top picture, this pyramid is split in two places. At the top is self explaining, though you could explain it to yourself in a lot different ways. Your writing voice or there’s also rubber ducking in programming. Have you seen a rubber ducking?

Spencer Greenberg 54:52

Is that where you tell it to rubber duck? Oh, but you explain your problem you’re having to the rubber duck and? just solve your own problem.

Michael Simmons 54:58

Yeah, exactly. Yep. And then, then once you get to the other side, it’s you’re explaining to others and there’s different levels of that there’s informal conversations, then there’s, let’s say, a mastermind more formal, it’s a mastermind conversation. And then it starts to be thought leadership where you really package it really well, to somebody, people, maybe from a broader audience could find it relevant. And, you know, if getting a livelihood that I feel like every level you go up towards makes it. So you actually learn it more deeply, the more valuable it is to other people, probably the more you’ve learned it better.

Spencer Greenberg 55:34

I think that’s right, because to make it valuable to others, you kind of need to know, you need to know a lot of details that you then don’t actually share them, but they just help you build the scaffold of like, what’s the most important part of this? And how do I say this, and so on. Actually, more and more recently, I’ve been finding a great deal of value in starting ideas as a tweet. So like, okay, I want to think about an idea. First, let me tweet about it, then, if that’s nice, because it like is a nice, small amount of time that I can use to think about, it’s just like very bite sized, it’s easy to fit into my schedule. And then I can see how people reacted it resonated people find it valuable. And then I can consider if it’s like, let’s say, I’m like, Oh, yeah, people seem to actually find this interesting and valuable, then I can consider like, okay, now let me turn it into a Facebook post. And that’s like the next level ratcheting it up. And that’s like, much more detailed and they’re on Facebook is usually where I get a lot of critique, people make a lot of suggestions for improving it. And that is, brings me the net ratcheting up one level higher, where now I’m taking all their suggestions and critiques them saying, you know, Oh, thank you. That’s a great point. Let me update the post. And it’s kind of becoming this living document. And then that leads to the final ratcheting, which is like, okay, make it into an actual essay that I’m gonna release on my website or somewhere else,

Michael Simmons 56:43

right, and then maybe a book after that, or eventually a book. And a book series, like celebs in Saratoga or something like that. Yeah, I have the same exact sort of system. It’s interesting with like, taking a step back on that I got this wording from the book called Little Bets, but talk about those systems, experimentation systems in different domains. You could apply it to movie scripts, where there’s the outlining, then storyboarding and so on. And then there’s different reviews at each level. And for hours, oh, what I think is really interesting is it’s almost it’s really a different way of thinking. It’s like a social cognition, almost. Number one, you’re getting feedback from people on what’s interesting and what’s not interesting. And then that’s guiding it. That’s like strengthening certain pathways that of your thinking you wouldn’t have gone down unless other people are interested in it. And then it’s also good to see your prediction too. Yeah. What do you mean by that prediction?

Spencer Greenberg 57:44

Well, you basically one thing that’s, that’s really important to me is to model what other people find valuable. So it helps me hone my like, internal Prediction Engine, I’m like, Will people find this idea valuable or not? Um, and I aspire to get to the point where I can just predict in advance that something will be really valuable to people. And I don’t even need to check because I’m so accurate. I’m not there yet. But I’m getting better and better. For now, a couple years, everything I post on Facebook, I make a pre prediction about how people react to it.

Michael Simmons 58:11

Interesting you put you put that in a spreadsheet?

Spencer Greenberg 58:13

Yeah, like a huge spreadsheet.

Michael Simmons 58:14

So you can actually literally see how accurate you are, you can see that actually getting better your predictions.

Spencer Greenberg 58:20

Yeah, so I had like, I have confidence intervals that I tracked out predicting a predict, like, you know, I think it’s gonna be between 20 and 35 likes and stuff like that. I will add that I think there’s one danger of doing this that people have to be careful about and steer clear of if they’re using something like Twitter to evaluate like, the residence of an idea, which is it’s very important that you focus on did this idea resonate with people where do they find it valuable? Not do people give me social kudos for saying the thing? Because, right, that’s a failure mode, where it’s just like, you’re actually just optimizing for like being likeable or like, say, you know, cheering on the thing that other people cheer on.

Michael Simmons 58:57

Right? If you say environment is important, or something, and then cheer that on.

Spencer Greenberg 59:02

Yeah, exactly. So But fortunately, I tend to write about things that are orthogonal to politics. So I don’t get like either pseudo code, social kudos or social condemnation most of the time, because people are just like, wouldn’t like this has nothing to do with like the topics that I’m used to even topics that are potentially controversial. Like, what is racism? I try to approach it in a completely orthogonal way, like at the point of view of sociologists being like, how are people using the word racism? What do they mean by that? What are the different options? Rather than trying to take a political side?

Michael Simmons 59:34

Yeah, man, I just I feel like I just seeing our conversation that I was seeing lots of different paths, they could go down that somebody pin Well, one thing in the the thought leadership ROM. So this is maybe just transitioning a little bit away from questions to the thought leadership is what what creates value long term for thought leadership? So my, okay, let me start off by giving my personal philosophy on where we are and where we’re going. And then your thoughts on that. So I personally believe that we’re in that start off with programming where we’re programming was and software was about 30 years ago. So we can take something from your head, prototyping, and computer is a software code, it can instantly run across anywhere in the world, at no extra cost. There’s a maintenance cost, but it’s super scalable. And so the software industry has really grown over the past several years, because of there’s a whole funding ecosystem of there’s a whole education accelerators support, there’s a whole philosophy about what it means to write good software or start a software company. And it’s really developed, you can really see that progress. And when it comes to ideas and turn into that, I think one it hasn’t evolved as quickly. And sometimes I’ve been wondering, okay, why hasn’t evolved, I think partially from a monetization, a lot of people who come up with ideas, they’re, they’re doing it for free, or passion or those just in the past year or two, where I feel like people like substack people are actually charging for their content. And courses are becoming bigger, and people are buying courses more often. And so, I like to think about is what does it mean to be a thought leader, just like, what does it mean to be a good software programmer or software startup. And part of it, I think, at a core level, there’s their ideas bank you have, and then there’s how you express it. And though it’s like, let’s say the expression to be how good your writing is, how good how good you are at simplifying and creating titles. And then there’s the idea part of, you have to have a large database of ideas, and be able to combine them together into really attractive ideas that people will share. And I personally believe that the most of the highest leverage thing is on learning really, highly valuable content that’s durable. That gives you the fodders that you get combine like Lego blocks that you can combine ideas together, that because you have those Lego blocks, no one else could even think about it, because they don’t have those same basics. And then the last thing is that I feel like there’s a compounding advantage that happens because like if I want to write an article about physics or something, I would have to spend a lot of time just to be able to write something interesting about it. And so if you have a large base of knowledge, there’s less feeling of competition that all these people that you could write the article that you’re thinking about. So for me, I spend a lot of my time researching because of that. And I heard you allude to things on this call about you start your day, think about value and what’s valuable to write about what’s true. And also you want to model what other people find valuable. So I hear you talk about value, but in your own words, what do you think it means to be a good thought leader? Long term?

Spencer Greenberg 1:03:04

Hmm. Yeah. Well, I like a lot of what you said. And it’s extremely hard to be novel. Right? Like, there’s so many people generating so many ideas. And personally, I think the idea of trying to be novel is like, rather overrated. And I think most the time when we think people are being novel, they’re not in the set you just in the sense that others have thought about the idea before, right? I think most of the time we call it novel, it’s not really, I’m kind of shocked sometimes to see like, a paper from 1950 discussing idea that like, is now there, just a new paper that came out in 2020. And you’re like, Are you serious? Like, you know, and I’m not someone who’s studied history deeply. But I think that there’s a lot more repetition of ideas that we acknowledge. So what I like to think about, and I believe you and I’ve discussed this before, is not so much being novel, but producing novel value. In other words, producing value that’s not currently being produced in the world that says to me what matters, not like being the first to say a certain idea which you’re probably not going to be, but I totally agree with you that if you want to say stuff that’s more unique to you, which is necessary to to produce novel value, because like if you’re just saying whatever we’re not saying that’s not not what we are either to produce things, they’re uniquely valuable. You have to push pretty far in one direction. So either you build up all these building blocks so you can combine flexibly and so that allows you to create unique value, or you go deep enough in one area. You get to sort of the edge of it. And then you can preach novel value that that edge, or you play to some strength that you’re like ridiculously unusual in. So sometimes that comes about because someone’s like an expert in to random things that are unrelated, like them as an expert in I don’t know, artificial intelligence, but also they’re an expert in I don’t know, like friendship or something like that. It’s like, wow, maybe there’s some crazy thing at that intersection. I don’t know, maybe there’s not but like, so they can get to the edge really fast by combining these like kind of weird things that nobody would combine. So that that’s a possibility, or you just have come some exceptional ability in some area that lets you push push that, you know, like you think about like Josh Waitzkin, you know, like, he clearly has an exceptional ability to learn things. And so he’s able to, like, say very interesting things about learning that other people wouldn’t have thought of. So you know, so I think that’s kind of the way I frame thought leadership is spreading ideas in a way that produces unique value that nobody else is producing.

Michael Simmons 1:05:18

Yeah. And then how do you think about, let’s just, how long do you want to do you picture yourself being a thought leader for the rest of your life?

Spencer Greenberg 1:05:25

I would, I would like to be. I mean, basically, I feel like I’m on a quest, one to understand how to figure out truths about the world. And then to to use those methods to figure out truths, and then three, to use those truths to improve people’s lives. And so for me, the idea of being a thought leader, it comes out of my life mission, because it’s like, as I’m on this quest to like, figure out how to figure out the truth, facts, you figure out the truth, and then figure out how to use the truth to improve those lives. I saw so many ideas come out of that, that then I can share with others. Right. So it’s, to me thought leadership is like a side effect of my of my life mission. It’s not the it’s not the mission of itself.

Michael Simmons 1:06:07

Yeah, yeah, I understand. And that really comes across that you’re really trying to figure out as as it sounds, like what’s true, and the Venn diagram of what’s true, and what’s valuable. But it’s interesting, I just was listening to a podcast with Noah Yuval Harari, and Bill Gates. And they were talking about how many of the most valuable things in the world like a lot of people would say religion is one of the most valuable things in their life. Or let’s say money aren’t real, in a certain sense. There’s they’re stories. And I feel like there’s a lot of beliefs that are actually really that this goes to let’s say Nassim Taleb, I feel like a lot of his stuff is kind of saying, there’s a lot of things that aren’t necessarily true in the scientific way. But they’re true in the real world, like his fat Tony, sort of way that it just works, though. Maybe we don’t have the best explanation of it. Though, sometimes I wonder about that as a as a thought leadership, too, is that there’s I guess there’s that there’s useful, but not always true.

Spencer Greenberg 1:07:10

Yeah. So for me personally, like one of my deepest intrinsic values, is, like believing true things and spreading true things. And yeah, I’m not, you know, obviously, I’m not always perfect and fulfilling this, but it really is a really deep value for me. So for me, it’s a non starter. If I think an idea is not true, if I think it’s vague, it’s false. But like a lie, but useful, I’m going to try to avoid it. There are others that say, well, maybe maybe the right line is actually for the for the greater good. And I just that just totally does that align with my value system. However, I will say that there are many, there’s a trade off between simplicity and accuracy, right? So there can be a lot of value in producing a, a model that’s like, only somewhat accurate, but it’s very simple, right? And even though it’s far from perfect, it actually improves people’s understanding. So I think that to me, that’s the question is not is the model perfect? No model is perfect. But does the model improve people’s understand from where they’re at? So an example of this is like children are often taught that like atoms are kind of like billiard balls, like bouncing around, right? And that’s not really true. We know that that’s not true. But I think it’s still useful model teach children, I would rather it’s, there’s an addendum added saying, by the way, this is just an approximation later, you’re gonna learn about this thing called quantum mechanics when you’re older, that will tell you that it’s even weirder, but this is like a decent model to get you started. And it’s much better than what you thought, you know, before you earned any science. Yeah,

Michael Simmons 1:08:42

my, I don’t, I don’t feel like I have my wording right here. But I feel like I definitely was impacted by Trump and everything. And I don’t want to go into the politics. But I feel like it’s like, it’s fairly common to say, Okay, he’s lying a lot, but it doesn’t matter at some level. He’s also the the amount of votes, he’s able to become the president of the United States. And so it almost challenged on my beliefs about how the world works. And then I just started noticing in different domains that there’s a lot of times where there’s an understanding something but if you just in terms of Okay, Let’s say there’s two parts to the world. One is understanding how physics works, right? And then that’s one way there’s truth there, that’s really valuable. And you’re not going to be able to build a rocket ship that goes to Mars by going off of non truth. You

Spencer Greenberg 1:09:39

can’t build a rocket ship of lies.

Michael Simmons 1:09:42

Exactly. But then we’re but on the other hand, we’re living in the human domain where there’s, you’re talking to paper, there’s, you’re working together and collaborating. And that’s clearly to me not build on truth. And even, let’s say money or something like that. It’s built on sometimes mutual belief, or, and so for me, I feel like there’s a lot of areas where I choose to believe things that are non provable, like, okay, I believe that life is going to get better. I believe that when I’m coaching someone, I feel like they can really have, I guess it’s more of a possibility that they can really have breakout and accomplish their goals. So it’s not exactly the same, but I feel like it’s, it starts to go into the woo land, but I feel like there’s a value to as a thought leader, that you’re able to create value by not just starting from truth that you understand where I’m going, I don’t have it well thought out. Yeah,

Spencer Greenberg 1:10:40

I do. I do. And I think this comes down to values, right? There are comforting lies, there are accompanying falses, they’re false as they help people. They’re also truths that help people. And because my value is very deeply rooted in truth. Like I find it unethical to like purposely spread lies. I just that to me, that just rules out all those methods. Like, let me give you an example, actually, to illustrate this. So I have a friend who had this saying she found helpful, which was that, like, everything that happens to you, even if it’s really bad, is the perfect thing to happen for you. Right. And she found this valuable, this made her feel better. But I would never use that method. And I also would never advocate it instead, I would say, let’s find another statement that makes you feel better about bad things. That’s actually not deceiving yourself. Because we know like, of course, the things that happen to you are not always perfect, like, you know, so how about, you know, and you’d have to experiment to figure out which one works for you. But maybe you have another thing, like, you know, everything that that bad to happen to you is a learning opportunity that it probably is true, right? Like there’s something to be learned from that. Whether it’s about your own resilience or about how to avoid that problem in the future or about you know, about the way life works or whatever. Right so I would look for something that has the benefits but without the the fall set. And yeah, good.

Michael Simmons 1:11:58

Is it actually false under like, is money falsehood like uh, you know, I’m just cuz I listen to the Yuval Noah Harari, podcast talking about money as this idea that we created or, you know, the company doesn’t exist, you know, like, there’s not like, you can’t go meet a company. It’s this idea that we create,

Spencer Greenberg 1:12:17

I would just differentiate, yeah, I would differentiate between an actual falsehood and something like money, I think of money as an intersubjective truth, which I think is how many people do it as well, where in other words, the value of money is true insofar as people believe it. But that doesn’t mean it’s false. Like if people are willing to give you a candy bar for $1, than $1 is worth a candy bar. And that is actually true. At the moment, they stopped believing it’s worth candybar, it won’t be any more.

Michael Simmons 1:12:44

But it feels like most of things. And maybe that’s maybe that’s just within your that’s still within your realm you’re calling inter subjective truths. I feel like that person what you said of your friend that everything happens, the best way possible or something like that.

Spencer Greenberg 1:12:57

Everything happens is perfect. Exactly meant to be

Michael Simmons 1:13:00

there. Would that be an interest objective truth?

Spencer Greenberg 1:13:03

I don’t think so. See, I just think that that’s false. Like, I mean, maybe there’s some weird reading of the Word Perfect there that like makes it true. But I think by a plain reading of it, it’s just a falsehood. And I think I do think that there’s a very large number of falsehoods that are spread in society today. And they’re not just inter subjective truths, which I don’t I don’t have a problem with inter Subjective Truth. These introspective truths are true as long as people can believe in them, which is a form of truth.

Michael Simmons 1:13:26

Yeah. And I think we’re probably an agreement that like blatant falsehoods of like, I don’t know, the tree is green. And then we’re saying we’re trying to argue it’s not, those don’t have it. We’re not trying to do those as thought leaders, but sometimes I just think about for people as thought leaders of where to specialize in that, if you’re trying to make the most value, trying to stay in the realm, I feel like there’s a lot value in this intersubjective truth, because that’s where people actually apply and use things. And now as humans, we’re not I feel like we’re not really we’re more designed for inter Subjective Truth than know reality truth of like physics truth.

Spencer Greenberg 1:14:08

Yeah, I think I think that the Yeah, there’s definitely to be said for that view. I think really, though, part of this is about storytelling. And the way I think about that, is that for any truth, there’s like, probably At least 100 ways to tell the story of that truth. That is, that is true. Like it’s not a lie. But the point is that any fact has many stories that you could tell around it. And it depends on like, which parts to emphasise, how much time do you spend on every part, what words you use to describe it, etc, etc. And so I think, for me, the most ethical form of thought leadership is to try to always tell the truth, you’re all human, we’re gonna sometimes fail, we’re gonna make mistakes, we’re gonna etc. But I try to always tell the truth, but then to also optimize for the the story around the truth that helps people use that truth. Right, and that story, there’s a lot of flexibility to it. Um, okay.

Michael Simmons 1:14:59

So our processing here, I think it’s an interesting topic, because it’s like, what really creates the value long term. And I think about this a lot, because I think it’s very easy as a thought leader to get caught in, okay, I just want to get the most Facebook likes, or I want to build a business. And that’s going to be the most thing versus I appreciate, let’s say in the seem to lab in the sense that you’re, you’re worth focusing on creating, first of all, he’s spent 40 hours per week learning for since he was 16. Those, you know, applying all this wisdom, he applying it to his life and becoming a trader and testing out there, then he’s studying it academically. And then he’s building ideas that could last the test of time. And I find that model of thought leadership really interesting. And so that’s partially why I’m also just asking you all these questions, it feels like, do you resonate with the seem to love model? Or do you look at yourself in as a different approach to how you’re, what you’re trying to accumulate over time and share?

Spencer Greenberg 1:15:59

Well, you know, I think that and Steven is come up with some really, really cool and powerful ideas. And it also ways of describing them and making people understand the value of them like antifragility, I think it’s really cool. And the idea of a black swan, like, surely he’s not the I don’t think he invented the concept of black swan. But I think he did a great job of like articulating the importance of it, and what people misunderstand about it, and like, you know, adding a lot of value there. So I certainly I certainly respect that a lot. But you know, it’s like, let’s take, let’s take something like internal family systems, right, is basically, you know, a way of doing therapy that involves you imagine these different parts to yourself, you know, we alluded to this earlier, from my point of view is totally false. To tell someone, you have this literal like part inside you this, you know, manager was one of the terms they used inside you, that’s like doing this thing. And you’ve got to like talk to that manager. If you communicate to someone that that’s they literally had this manager, that’s actually misleading. But to say, this is a useful introspective tool to imagine you as this manager, and then to talk to the manager. And this leads to positive outcomes. That’s a totally legitimate and, and honest way to do it. So for my Now I’m not saying people are lying when they say that they really believe in like the manager in your mind, or whatever. I’m not saying they’re lying, they actually may believe that that’s true, but I think it’s false. So to me, there’s an ethical way to do it internally, I’m assistance based on my belief system, which is to communicate why the technique is valuable, and what’s actually going on to the best of your understanding, that makes sense. It doesn’t mean you can’t do family systems, if you don’t believe that you actually have a manager. But

Michael Simmons 1:17:33

I wonder if that is actually what works long term, the part of the value of an idea that has to be appreciated by other people, and valued. Just like I don’t know, let’s just say like dating or other things, it’s not enough to be internally consistent, or like, Okay, I’m a really nice guy, or girl, but to be a certain way. And so I feel like, if you look at over, if you look at the thought, leadership space, our attention spaces, ideas competing against each other, and oftentimes, the simple ideas really win that in over time, if you even have a complex idea, that’s going to be simplified. So I’m not arguing against what you’re saying. I agree. I feel like that’s more accurate. But it also seems like what wins over time is like, it’s this simple version that people can immediately understand and has an emotional part. And so if part of your goal is to have the most value in the world, that there’s maybe there’s trade off, sometimes it sounds like you’re not willing to make those at some level. But I wonder if that would hurt long term?

Spencer Greenberg 1:18:39

Well, I don’t think it’s simple. It’s false. Like, you know, going back to this idea of like, a simple model is, you know, it’s gonna be less accurate if you’re trying to study a complex phenomenon, right? But it might, but the trade off, there’s always a trade off between, like simplicity and accuracy. And actually, as long as you’re upgrading people’s understanding, like they understand the thing better, they’re more accurate perception of like, what’s true, after hearing the idea, then before, then you’ve actually improved their thinking you’ve improved it understand the world not made it worse. If you have a simple idea that’s totally false, then you’ve downgrade their understanding the world. Now, I think in my ideal form of this, you would explain that this is a simple model, and you say this is not the complete complexity, but it’s a really useful way of capturing a lot of value in a simple thing, and so that would be the best But as long as you’re making people believe more truth, rather than less than I’m, I’m in favour. But again, I will go back to just the incredible importance of storytelling. And I think if you have a good idea that is true, you still have to work really, really hard to tell the story around it in a way that resonates with people that way that people find valuable. And a lot of work needs to go into there. And I think that that’s vastly underestimated. And basically, I think that’s how so, you know, it’s like, imagine two people, one who’s like just spouting bullshit ideas trying to optimize for like what will get clicks or what will get them famous or something, and you have another person who’s trying to say true things that are that are useful. Like, if the second person doesn’t do good storytelling, then they’re going to lose. But if they do good storytelling, then they can potentially compete and potentially even win the long term. Because people are not like total morons. Like, yeah, some people will be fooled, but other people will be like, yeah, that person’s kind of bullshit. You know, the first person is kind of bullshit. So there isn’t, there’s advantage, the truth. But also, I think at a deeper level, it’s like what kind of impact you want to have on the world, like that first person who’s just spouting nonsense, they’re actually probably going to have a net negative impact on the world. And I think that most people don’t want to do that, like they genuinely want to have that positive impact. So by constraining yourself by to things that are true, there may be simplified version of the truth, that’s fine. As long as they’re upgrading people’s knowledge, I think that’s a that’s a really useful constraint and making sure you have a positive legacy, not a negative one.

Michael Simmons 1:20:43

And how to use or one part is the idea part, and we’re talking about true and useful. How do you then think about the craft of it? You’ve talked about storytelling, there’s voice? How do you think about developing your voice and thought leadership long term?

Spencer Greenberg 1:20:58

So I am not the world’s expert story. This is something I’m still very much working on and trying to get better at storytelling. But I think there’s a lot of different elements to this. One is can you make it visual and vivid for people? I think that that’s really powerful. So another way to do it is to say, Can I like put this in a metaphor that people already relate to or understand? A third way is like, Can I give a concrete example, that like, makes this meaningful to people like, oh, I’ve seen that happen, or that’s happened to me, or Wow, that was a really amazing example, like amazing story that also illustrates a principle. So these are all aspects of storytelling. And then of course, like, if you can, if you really want to embed it in a story you want to storytelling all the way, then you need to start thinking about the narrative and like, the narrative arc, and conflict in the story, you know, maybe even Hero’s Journey or whatever, it depends how far you want to push it.

Michael Simmons 1:21:54

I’ve noticed you don’t really use as much storytelling in your your writing, I feel like it’s more, you’re exploring the idea more, and you’re really breaking it down really well and simplifying it. How do you think about, I’ll just share for myself, I sometimes I’m motivated in a similar way. And for me, storytelling, like I realised, like, helps communicate the idea. But it’s also like, it’s not as exciting for me as the learning part. Do you think about that for yourself?

Spencer Greenberg 1:22:25

Yeah. So again, you know, storytelling is it’s something I’m working on developing, and it’s, you know, very much active area of developing knowledge for me. But I think that if I want to get my ideas to a much wider audience, that storytelling is like a key aspect to that. And that’s probably why I’m so interested in it. Yeah. Right now, I’m very much focused on like, get all the good ideas that I can explain them to my audience in a way that they find valuable. And then eventually, I want to develop a really good skill of like weaving that into stories to make it widely appealing to like a much bigger audience. It’s not as much like, you know, people that are unusually reflective and unusually interested in ideas and so on. But I’m lucky that like, my initial audience I built is really an idea seeking audience that loves, you know, likes to think and so, to them, I can communicate very directly. Like, here’s a really cool idea. I learned, like, let me break it down for you. Let me give you, you know, the 10 parts of it or whatever.

Michael Simmons 1:23:19

Yeah, yeah. Well, Spencer, I feel like, this is our third podcast in 2020. I love it. I really, really appreciate how your mind works. And just you could really feel your commitment to truth and understanding how things work. And then explaining that though. I’m having fun. You’re there.

Spencer Greenberg 1:23:37

Love coming on. Thanks so much, Michael.

Michael Simmons 1:23:42

And you’ve mentioned some of your websites before, but could you just share a little bit where people can learn more about you and follow you?

Spencer Greenberg 1:23:50

Yeah, so we, as of like two weeks ago, I think we now have 57 free tools you can use on our website clearerthinking.org. So if you want to understand your values better, or you want to make better decisions, or you want to understand how cognitive biases work, then just go to clearerthinking.org If you want to learn about my work more broadly go to spark wave dot tech. So it’s dot te ch you can follow me on Twitter. I’m SPENCR, Greenberg and then I’d love for you to check out my podcast Clearer Thinking with Spencer Greenberg where Michael is actually episode number one Yeah, I love the episode with him so much. I made it the first episode of the series, but I have basically fine intellectual conversations with brilliant guests. So awesome.

Michael Simmons 1:24:31

I highly, highly recommend the podcast to everyone. And I look forward to having our fourth conversation sometime in 2021, Spencer and I love that Thanks.

Outro 1:24:42

Pushing the Bounds of Curiosity, Language, and the Creative Process with Jessica Hagy

Jun 23, 2021 // by michaeld // Podcast // No Comments

Jessica Hagy is an artist, writer, and creator of the award-winning blog, Indexed. She uses visual storytelling to let readers draw their own conclusions and actively participate in each narrative. Since 2006, Jessica has been a freelance illustrator for clients around the world. Her diagrams and illustrations depict everything from business strategies to sly puns.

Jessica’s work has been published in various web formats, galleries, books, magazines, newspapers, television outlets, and advertising campaigns. She is also the author of many books, including How to Be Interesting and The Art of War Visualized.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

Jessica Hagy talks about why she started her blog and how it flourished over just a few days
How Jessica factors learning into her creative process
The benefits of working in many different industries
Jessica’s insight into why people share her content — and strategies for incorporating feedback
What are the steps you should take for consistently posting your content?
How to improve as a writer and creator
Jessica’s tips for expanding on your curiosity
How Jessica shapes language and coins new words

In this episode…

Are you a creator looking to find inspiration and gain a new perspective about the world? Do you want to improve your creative process and publish content across multiple industries?

As a widely known writer, artist, and creator, Jessica Hagy is combining humor, visual design, and storytelling to make something unique. Her exploration of language, translations, and the origin of words has led her to a niche that spans across industries where she can transform how we look at the world. This line of creative work has allowed her to expand her curiosity, and now she’s here to share her methods with you.

In this episode of The Michael Simmons Show, writer and artist Jessica Hagy talks with host Michael Simmons about how she creates content. Jessica shares exercises that help her stay curious, tips for posting content consistently, and strategies for incorporating feedback and engaging with an audience. Stay tuned.

Resources Mentioned in this episode

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by my company, Seminal.

We help you create blockbuster content that rises above the noise, changes the world, and builds your business.

To learn about creating blockbuster content, read my article: Blockbuster: The #1 Mental Model For Writers Who Want To Create High-Quality, Viral Content

Episode Transcript

Intro 0:02

Michael Simmons 0:15

I am really excited about today’s guest. Like really excited. Her name is Jessica Hagy. And she has produced over 6,000 diagrams or images, and seven books her cop her books have sold hundreds of 1000s of copies. Her images have been seen millions and even 10s of millions of times. It has been published in Forbes and Quartz and Business Insider. And even beyond all of those accomplishments. I really admire that Jessica has done craft innovation, that she’s found the format of way of sharing images and get across funny, complex topics in a very simple and funny way. And even at a deeper level. Jessica is a genius you’re about to see this. She’s one of those people who really really understands the language at a very fundamental level images at a fundamental level, and understands how to translate between them, like she breaks down sentences into their studs, then is able to turn the sentence into a mathematical formula, and then is able to turn that into a Venn diagram, a dot plot, a graph. And her way of thinking has really changed how my mind works, helped me be a better content creator, but also even a better thinker. So without further ado, let’s jump in. So, Jessica 6,000 visual, how did you? How did you get to that? What was the schedule that you started with? And what is your schedule now.

Jessica Hagy 1:51

Um, so when I started drawing these, I was posting two or three a day. And then I started posting one officially every weekday and doing the rest as client work. So I’ve been posting, posting one officially to my, to my blog since 2006. Every

Michael Simmons 2:11

day to your blog,

Jessica Hagy 2:13

one per day, wow, unless something catastrophic happens, like a computer dies, or I have to fly somewhere. And yeah, that’s been the system. And so over time, I’ve just accumulated this vast, shoebox full many shoeboxes full of diagrams.

Michael Simmons 2:31

And how did you determine that? Okay, I’m going to do GM to go from, you know, zero to every once in a while, sporadically to Okay, I’m gonna do two to three per day and really make a commitment to this. What was it? Like? How time where were you in life?

Jessica Hagy 2:46

Let’s see, I was think I was about 28. And I was I just wanted to just put a blog up, I had read that every writer needs a blog. But I didn’t want to do one of those, like, here’s my breakfast situation. And so I was I mean stealable office supplies, index cards fit that fit that pretty well. And I had

Michael Simmons 3:07

it right away, how long did it take you to get the index cards. Um, I had that inside as a,

Jessica Hagy 3:14

I knew I could fit three on a scanner. And so that seemed like an efficient way to get images created back in 2006, before everybody had cell phones. And it was a sort of a creative constraint. So the smaller the space you have, the less you can ramble. And the more just concise and succinct you have to be. So using that format was really sort of freeing and forced me into exactly the objects that I ended up making. And it was already sort of a built-in branding element so that if somebody saw an index card, it became associated with me, which I right away,

Michael Simmons 3:52

you had, like how did you before you even had these ideas? Or these Venn diagrams on index cards? Was there a version before that?

Jessica Hagy 4:04

Nope. I just I started the blog on a I think on a Friday, or a Wednesday. And the next week, it was all over the internet. And I had a literary agent. And it was a thing, though, I just kept doing it.

Michael Simmons 4:18

Wow. And I know you have an MFA in creative writing. Did you have a background and what was your background didn’t design at that point.

Jessica Hagy 4:25

At that point, I was a copywriter at the Victoria’s Secret headquarters outside of Columbus, Ohio. And I was selling underpants to little children. And it was really, it was almost as dark of a gig as writing how to how to get subprime mortgage from JPMorgan Chase, which was the job I had directly before that. And so I was getting my MBA at night at the time I started the blog. I think that really informed a lot of the graphic language of it, because that was so much more formal as well. To underpants, horoscopes.

Michael Simmons 5:05

And so you’re you had a full-time job. And you’re going to MBA night and you start to do a blog. How did you find the time or make this a priority? I imagine you’re pretty dead tired at the end of the day?

Jessica Hagy 5:17

No, actually I was just I’ve always drawn and doodled and sketched things. And as far as sort of formalizing a doodle into something that can be shared was really just keep them in your pocket, and don’t get them like, Don’t keep them wrinkled. And as long as I have 20 seconds to scan and upload every day, I should be should be okay, if I keep my art supplies on my person.

Michael Simmons 5:38

And so before you had, you didn’t necessarily have as much training in Visual Arts, but you did a lot of doodling.

Jessica Hagy 5:44

Yeah, I mean, I worked with advertising enough that I was familiar with all of the design programs. And I mean, I knew enough to be dangerous, but not professional. And so a little bit more practice with this. And I built my own sort of what would be the phrase sort of toolkit of things that I knew that I needed to do to get things up.

Michael Simmons 6:11

And, you know, one of the big parts of the writing journey or skill mastery in any domain is what I call the learning valley of death. That beginning part, we’re trying to go from zero to one. And sometimes it could take years where you’re good enough where you rise above the noise, or months. But it sounds like if you did yours were kind of take off right away mentioning the literary agent produced. Yeah,

Jessica Hagy 6:34

I think too, I’d already been writing as a job and trying to think of ways to quickly get an idea across. And that had been my my gig for almost a decade at that point. So I think I had I had that skill, I just had to put it into a form that I could own.

Michael Simmons 6:54

And, okay, yeah, you have the writing, you had the training and the writing, and then also just the doodling. So there’s a way you found a way to combine two skills you already knew into something that was really unique online. And let’s see here. You know, one thing is, you the draws are very simple, but the ideas are really deep. And as curious. Look, how much do you is reading and research a part of your process to find material and how much time you know that per day?

Jessica Hagy 7:27

I think, oh, gosh, per day. I’m always reading at least two different books.

Michael Simmons 7:33

So it’s What are you reading right now? curiosity right

Jessica Hagy 7:36

now I’m reading, if you guys are at all into the idea of fungus is called Entangled Life. Oh, it’s fascinating. It’s about how funguses and everything and shapes everything we do. And then I’m also I also subscribe to Grantham which is Yeah, it’s a really good periodical like a literary magazine. The I think the editors are in London now.

Michael Simmons 8:02

Yeah, really interesting. I feel like the fact that those you have one book on literary magazine, another one on fungus, I feel like represents your, you know, also the topics you jump across. And I wouldn’t be surprised to see those diverse topics in your in your drawings. Yeah.

Jessica Hagy 8:21

Yeah, I don’t really confine myself to any one or two topics. But yeah, when I find something that’s, that’s really interesting to me, I sort of latch on to it, like my Velcro hooks are like, Oh, I’m sticking with this for a while. And I can really just sort of get into something.

Michael Simmons 8:37

There’s often a tension between, let’s say, focus, you know, the feel that there’s an idea that Okay, I have one niche, I should focus there. On the on the other hand, I feel like there’s more people who are being followed for their diverse interests. And you may not just for what they’re interested in at one point, has there ever been a tension for you to feel like, okay, I should, I should focus on just one thing, and I’m jumping around way too much?

Jessica Hagy 9:02

No, I think the one thing that I have found is that editors either have an idea of exactly what they want me to do, or they want to box me into a certain set of subjects. And because I am named Jessica and not John, I’ve been hired to write for a lot of women’s publications, which is the most frustrating thing because I’d rather write about fungus and bizarre ways things work. And I’ve been freelance for too long. So I really don’t understand that absolutely absolute current topics of women in the workplace. So that’s, that’s always a tough one. When they’re kind of like, this is who you are. And this is who you’re what you’re going to talk about. And it’s like, yeah, I can fake that pretty well, but it is a little bit awkward.

Michael Simmons 9:46

does not necessarily your readers, but if you’re working with editors or publications, they’re you’re feeling boxed in there.

Jessica Hagy 9:53

I think my editors are on the on the most. Most of them are pretty much like here. is a topic run with it go where you want. But sometimes it’s very stay in this lane that I need you to stay in. And that can really take sort of the the fun and spontaneity out of my work. So I have to be active, sort of thread that needle carefully to get good work done.

Michael Simmons 10:18

How do you think about threading is one of the in this course we do talk about as a Venn diagram, the different things of one is, let’s say product market fit, that there’s a market, they have needs, and you’re trying to solve those needs, which is Yeah, and then there’s also soul market fit of what you’re really interested in, and it’s hard to predict where it’s going to go, sometimes the dots don’t connect, looking forward. How do you thread the needle or anything you’ve learned about threading that,

Jessica Hagy 10:45

um, sometimes it’s it’s all about just like picking your battles, like I think we had a conversation once where it was, if you know what your what the person you’re working with, is really after it’s easier to work, it’s easier to do that, like some people are like, I want to save the world. And other people are like, I want to make $12 on this item every day. And figuring out who you’re working with and having enough projects going at once that you can be cool with doing a couple of those little tiny ones, and then not getting super bogged down in somebody. I’m going to save the world plan. So Hmm. Yeah, I think having a lot of things going at once helps me to see that none of them are absolute make or break.

Michael Simmons 11:25

Hmm, yeah, there’s this theory within creativity research by Howard Gruber, around networks of enterprise, a lot of the most creative people are not just working on one thing all the time. They’re working on a whole network of ideas that cross-fertilize and pollinate each other. And if one hits a dead end, then the other ones always there.

Jessica Hagy 11:44

Yeah. The other I think we talked about this two months is the lottery ticket theory of creative work, where everything you make is sort of a lottery ticket, and you don’t know if it’s going to like turn into something huge and famous. But the more you make, the more chances you have one of them sticking. And I think that happens too, because sometimes I’ll draw something and I’ll be like, that is perfect. And nobody will like it. And I’ll draw something like just sort of a throwaway. Like if it gets shared, like 7000 times. So yeah.

Michael Simmons 12:15

How? How do you think about the process of what it takes to get a blockbuster? So you mentioned just a little bit there and output there. But you know, how do you factor in learning that you’re getting better in each time you create a drawing?

Jessica Hagy 12:33

Yeah, I think that the just over time, you sort of just be get this discernment for what will work and what will stick and how that sort of stuff happens. And the other thing I found is the timing of posting things. And it changes like slowly. But it’s always been if I can get something out in the mornings, it’s better than in the evenings. It’s just a function of time zones. And like, Who’s online when and when you’re going to hit that population.

Michael Simmons 13:00

And in the course, we have this idea of, you know, 25 minute posts, or they’re shorter posts, build up to longer posts, something longer. And so you’ve had this model where you have a short post on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and you do you have a bunch of articles and magazines that drive business inside or other places that combine those images. And then you have seven books. How do you think about that I capture how you view it? And then how do you think about taking, what goes, how those relate to each other?

Jessica Hagy 13:35

And I always think of every single thing I do is in some way, an advertisement for every other single thing I do. So yeah, so everything that is definitely mine is definitely pointing people toward my home pages and googling me and figuring things out. And so every time I put something else out there, everything else is sort of fed on it. So it’s not like anything exists entirely on its own. But everything does have to sort of link back to itself.

Michael Simmons 14:08

You try to create a body of work in advance. In other words, okay, there’s a bunch of topics on one area, they seem to be interesting, I’m going to combine them or is a lot of it often is just you connecting the dots looking backwards, and you’re just really just following your curiosity under

Jessica Hagy 14:25

a lot like the more the more curious I get, the more satisfying that is for my readers. So if I were to just have stuck to only writing about business topics, I don’t think I would have been able to do as many of the really interesting projects as I’ve gotten to do. And because I do sort of go all over the place at that every now and then I’ll just attract a different niche market that’ll just find me all of a sudden So, oh, this month I did a podcast with a coaching organization and now all these coaches are using my work. In their, in their presentations, and before that it was the future of education and how UNESCO is looking at what schooling is going to look like in five years. And so I’m part of those subsets too. And I think because I am flexible and can draw all sorts of topics, I get to work with all sorts of different people. Like in advertising, the one of the cool things is that when you get a new client, you get to learn about an entirely new industry. And I always thought that was really super fascinating. And you’re not hired because you have a specialty in an industry you’re hired because you have a specialty and create in creative work. So doing more industrial, different, lots of different industries, I think is something that if you’re good enough at your creative stuff, you get to do that.

Michael Simmons 15:45

Yeah, yeah. So there’s one hand you’re cross-pollinating ideas across fields, but also from an audience building perspective. It really sounds like you’re able to pick up people from different fields as well. versus if you’re just in one. It’s Oh, yeah, missing out on a lot of people.

Jessica Hagy 16:02

And I, a lot of times, I don’t even know what, who’s going to really latch on to a topic. So I can draw something about timeliness or timezones or something just kind of universal. And it’ll latch on to one subset of some industry, and all of a sudden, it’s like, 17, postal carriers followed you today. And

Michael Simmons 16:27

yeah, it’s really interesting. What’s been your, what’s been most surprising about that, in terms of I noticed that too, if I write up well, I can obviously write about learning that, you know, people who are learning coaches or teachers are going to share and things like that. Have you? Have you been surprised? Just now that you have so much data on seeing people share your posts and why they share your posts? Have you been surprised at why people share your posts?

Jessica Hagy 16:54

Um, I think I’m always surprised when something goes like really, really viral. And I can, there’s really not a lot of rhyme or reason to those specific items. Because they tend to be all over the place like Santa’s abusing his elves. Like somehow that became like a thing. And there’s no industry that attached to that. But watching how people do share has become really interesting, too, because over time, it used to be like everyone posted their own version. And now it’s just links around. So they’re retweeting and the sharing on Facebook is a whole different sort of way to see how people tag each other.

Michael Simmons 17:34

Hmm. Have you seen any been any surprises or things that people wouldn’t expect? When you see people annotate your images with their own comments or tag people?

Jessica Hagy 17:45

Um, I have their use, there was a thing that went around like four years ago, where it was a meme of fixed it for you. And people would take my diagrams and like, change it somehow and then say, fixed it for you. And I thought, and my readers would just swarm on those people and be like, Don’t you dare. That stopped happening, I think it just became sort of a tedious meme. But just watching how things do get changed. And knowing that if you do have like a loyal reading base, people, you don’t have to, you don’t have to do anything, if there’s some sort of weird sketchy trollish behavior, because your people will come to your rescue.

Michael Simmons 18:26

jump a little bit, actually, before I jump, if you had to break down. Yeah, I find it interesting of why people share things in general. And we’ve talked in the course and titles about a formula of coca, you know, something is counterintuitive or surprising. This one, the second one wouldn’t apply to as much your type of writing but outcome-based that helps them achieve an outcome. A curiosity is the see and then authority. If you had a breakdown of the core reasons why people share in general, or your unique insight, and why people share, why do you think that is?

Jessica Hagy 19:01

I think I try to draw things that people can look at and say, Yeah, that’s true, or Yeah, that’s me. And if I can get to that deep sort of universality of something, then I know that I’ve, I’ve put something out there that people can get quickly and say, like, yeah, that’s me that works. And those are the things that people share the most, I think, or something that’s like, Oh, this is this is brutally true. And if it’s just sort of a pun, or a silly thing that gets some traction, but never as much as something that people like, then on the wall of their office.

Michael Simmons 19:39

What do you feel like it is about a brutal or really deep truth that the way you’re doing it or why are people why is that the thing people share?

Jessica Hagy 19:48

I think well, I sometimes like a really funny thing will get a lot of traction, but also just sort of like reading the room of the times. Right now. Things that are a little bit late. a hard pill to swallow type stuff is getting a lot more, a lot more traction. And I think that just might be sort of a zeitgeist-y sensation that people are people are looking for something a little, a little more bite, as opposed to something like fun and soft. Like, cat pictures are not taking over the internet right now. And I wish they would I wish they not.

Michael Simmons 20:23

That was a 2012 thing. How do you think about video one things we talked a lot about in this is a course is number one is output. But then number two is a feedback loop our way of improving and you just talked about just reading this I guys that the times you’re obviously getting a lot of feedback, since all the work. All your work is out there, though you might be just taking it unconsciously. But is there a way that you think about feedback and getting feedback or improving on your post?

Jessica Hagy 20:55

If anything is very specific, and I hear it more than three times it’s probably true. If things are if the same, if I hear the same thing over and over and over again, that’s something to pay attention to. If it’s some one off random comment. It might be hilarious. Or it might be mean or it might be something but usually the one offs that don’t fit into a set with other with other bits of feedback are sort of bad data, I guess, if you’re going to really streamline things. But yeah, you can you can learn a lot, just by kind of keeping your ear to your own replies

Michael Simmons 21:30

would be an example of something you’ve heard three times and you’re like, Oh, this could be really big. And then you start to focus on that you notice Oh, wow, there’s something here?

Jessica Hagy 21:39

Um,

gosh, I need what is a good recent example of that? Oh, I had one I have a diagram that was a failure of imagination and the triumph of misery. And it was when people say that’s just the way things are. And people sharing things that way. And then they were, they were saying, okay, so if we have this only what is the word for that? What is the word for that? And I was like, I don’t know. And I’ve been looking for that word for a couple of weeks. Like, there should be some sort of long Germanic word that that captures that that sensation is,

Michael Simmons 22:19

what’s your process for looking for that word? How are you thinking about it?

Jessica Hagy 22:24

You know, I just because I don’t speak German, but I have been, I got a new phone, and it has this translation program in it. So I’ve been throwing things in there just to see what I get. And throwing that into google translate to see like, if there’s a good like break and translation, if there’s something funny or interesting. And that’s been a really like kind of a new thing for me to just like, play with words until they break and see what I can get out of it.

Michael Simmons 22:49

I think you say that in a different way? Or what do you mean by you play with a word till a break? Or there’s a break in translation?

Jessica Hagy 22:57

Um, so let’s say like something, something gets lost, or something gets changed. It goes from pet to dog to beast to dragon, and all of a sudden, it’s like, Wait, is a dog a dragon? And how did you get there? And what are the links that, that bring that back around? Like, Oh, these are dinosaur bones? No, it’s a dragon. Like, how do you know it’s the same thing like this in like 1700. So playing with playing with something until you kind of get so far away from the original idea that you’re somewhere in somewhere else entirely? is sort of a cheap brainstorming my method, I guess.

Michael Simmons 23:40

Yeah, yeah, I saw when we had our call together, I can really see how you did that. Like you really followed a string and then just went in a lot of different places. So

Jessica Hagy 23:47

yeah, I’m very tangential. Yeah, yeah. And

Michael Simmons 23:53

on your routine side, do you have one image per day? Do? What are the steps to do that, starting from getting inspiration to your writing down? Good, I know you keep journals with less then penetrate the visual,

Jessica Hagy 24:09

I’ll just sort of start sketching things out. And sometimes I’ll draw something four or five times until I get the right tension in the image. But yeah, it really it is kind of taking a word and playing with a word until you get an idea out of it, or taking a statement and really massaging the statement into a visual.

Michael Simmons 24:31

And so for you you’ll with in terms of you’ll start with inspiration. And you mentioned before you you’re obviously reading a lot before you mentioned quote books. So how will you come across that word often or that idea? Is it just through your reading or?

Jessica Hagy 24:48

Yeah, I mean, I’ll end the other, like the rule of three online too, if you see something that keeps coming up and keeps coming up, but it’s not like Trump has COVID like what do I draw about that? Like, I have to take that as a tangent and be like, Okay, so this topic relates to this many people today in this way Why? And just sort of put bits and pieces together until I can pull a few words out and draw something that’s related to the topic, but not directly related to the topic.

Michael Simmons 25:19

Okay, so for example, the big news this morning is Trump has COVID. But when you see that you’re like, Okay, that’s everyone that’s interested. Yeah. What’s interesting about that, so you’re looking for tangents are unique. And half

Jessica Hagy 25:31

the time I do that I end up with, with drawings that aren’t related to that at all, but are interesting to me for different reasons. So I had I was doing Where did I put that had one, right before I hopped on with you guys, that was like, You can’t go on a playdate if you bite and kick and scream, or if you don’t wear your mask. So like, how does this? How does that totally work? And where’s that? Where’s that all going? And are we in the bad place? And I’ve just been, it’s early, but I’m getting there.

Michael Simmons 26:07

And, you know, for let’s say you pick an image and you start the day is it normally you start and end on one day on an image or it’s more, you’re working on five images at once? And then

Jessica Hagy 26:18

oh, always, always, at least six or seven? Something’s in the works. I’m wearing my if you can see my my desk here, it’s it’s pretty chaotic,

Michael Simmons 26:29

but have different note cards.

Jessica Hagy 26:31

Yes, but I know where everything is so

Michael Simmons 26:35

and so you’ll have six or seven. And then you’ll wake up in this morning, you saw Trump as COVID. And then you looked at the different things and then started using your technique of playing with the ideas or trying to having a word and trying to just iterations off of it.

Jessica Hagy 26:48

Yeah. And also just seeing sort of sometimes the main topic that’s out there that’s running around, people just need a total break from that because it gets overwhelming quickly. Yeah. And like today, it might be I don’t want to post anything super topical, I want to post something absolutely weird and silly. And weird and silly might be the break people need from the just on slot of topical information.

Michael Simmons 27:18

And then these are my I think my final question here before we actually jump into the exercises, and feel free to everyone to post your questions in chat as well. But how do you think about getting better? Though, I’ve been in situation before when I was in college, I did one post per day and then in 2012. And I feel like my mistake, I was too focused on the output. And I wasn’t actually getting better. And the Spirit and sorry about my cat in the background when you start talking about Allah music.

Jessica Hagy 27:50

No, I, I wasn’t sure if that was yours or mine.

Michael Simmons 27:54

But how do you get better? I’m going to drop my video for a second.

Jessica Hagy 27:58

Yeah, so I want I know that I have to keep reading and staying on top of things. And so I was that was part of that need to get better when I was a copywriter was getting my MBA. And then in 2016, I went back and got the MFA. And I think that helped a lot. And really just sort of I don’t know what I don’t know. So I need other people to tell me things that I wouldn’t find on my own. And as curious as I can be I’m I am habitual. And I am curious in the same directions a lot of times. So getting other people to guide me a little bit is always really helpful. I think if I run into a I’m getting stale moment, I really have to sort of turn to people other than me to give me information.

Michael Simmons 28:47

All right, got a question here. Let’s see, from James Ashcroft. When Jessica has a nascent idea, how does she capture the idea’s essence to noodle on it later?

Jessica Hagy 28:59

That is totally just a jot a jot of a word they really think it’s it’s word-based first and then image-based. So you start with the words and then you can play with the image.

Michael Simmons 29:11

Now we’re gonna go a little bit deeper, later, but can you pay tell a little bit more about what that means? So if you take a word, and then you did already a little bit, but can you give another example of that?

Jessica Hagy 29:22

So let’s just say the word is lint. Like, for some reason, lint is just the fascinating, weird, hilarious little word to me. And I’m going to have it and I’m going to think about it. I’m going to think what is where is it? What is it? Why is it there? Like what’s it made of? What are the synonyms for it? who caused it? Is it What’s it related to what are the actions it invokes? Like, I’ll just build sort of a like pile of words until I have a story that I can sort of swoop through. And then from there, I’ll put a sentence together and then I’ll draw that sentence out.

Michael Simmons 29:53

Okay, wow, that was interesting on a few levels. What like so I’ve never really thought about what Words is interesting. I’ve been more in the ideas are interesting. But what makes an idea interest or word interesting to you like lint?

Jessica Hagy 30:08

Um, you never I mean, you never know. But you have that sensation where if you say a word like 100 times it feels foreign and unreal.

Michael Simmons 30:16

Yeah,

Jessica Hagy 30:16

I think every word like if you if it gives you that sort of like ASMR tingle, then you’re like, ooh, what is that? And playing with it and seeing like, what it can offer you is really sort of a Ooh, that’s fun. Or like, what’s in a magazine? Is it a gun magazine? Is it a fashion magazine? Like what is that word is like a lot of different letters and fields. Feel stretchy. So you can play with not just a topic, but a single word in the topic. And sometimes that can really stretch out to and it goes from one word to like, dozens and they just branch out.

Michael Simmons 30:52

And how do you think about the story around the world? I’d never if you said that. To me. I just think oh, the story is like, how somebody coined the word. But what is it that are that stretchy?

Jessica Hagy 31:05

I think like Oxford English Dictionary searches are always like, super cool. Like, how did that word come out? And like the first time somebody said it was in like, 1418 on accident and but really like, finding a way that that word relates to people right now. Or a way that that fits into their lives is one of those like, oh, wow, that’s hilarious. Huh?

Michael Simmons 31:30

So there’s almost like a, it’s almost like words have a personality that you’re getting to know like you like a person almost. You’re almost talking about a word like a person, I guess.

Jessica Hagy 31:39

Yeah. And I think as long as you’re sort of kind and generous with your, with what you’re doing, it keeps your work from getting to mean. But it does keep it keep it kind of, like if I’m in a really wholesome mood, that word is going to end up being like kind of a wholesome joke. But if I’m in kind of like a feisty mood, it’s going to be about like how dryers catch on fire.

Michael Simmons 31:59

Right, right. Yeah. Interesting. So your mood, your mood factors into it?

Jessica Hagy 32:04

Yeah. And sometimes I’ll just draw a set of things and I’ll look back and they’ll be like, I was just crabby. Like, I’m glad I didn’t post any of those, and then I’ll just come back and do

Michael Simmons 32:12

and how can a word that guy I wouldn’t normally think about a word as funny. Like, what? Like, when you hear the lamp? What makes that that’s funny to you.

Jessica Hagy 32:22

Um, I mean, belly button lint, lint everywhere. Like it goes in your dryer, it’s part of your clothes, like, are you made of lint? Is there skin in it? Like, oh, like it just gets really, really complicated? And all of a sudden, it’s like, Are there tardigrades crawling around? And like, Are there creatures in my house? And

Michael Simmons 32:39

Wow, that’s really fascinating. That’s like a depth of curiosity that I feel like I view myself as a curious person. And I’m just like, Okay, I’m not very curious when you when you say that, it kind of reminds me of it can be like a comedian, they’re incredibly brilliant. And they find these little situations or a little feelings that no one really notices, but they have their, you know, ear to the ground all the time for strange feelings or emotions or situations. And it seems like as a writer, you kind of have your feelers up, or words that you know, create a sensation, that’s a little that breaks away from the other noise of words in your life. That’s,

Jessica Hagy 33:24

that’s a good way to put it with the feelers out. Because if you’re always sort of just like, what, like, being open to like hearing that, and sort of like awkwardly pausing and being like, I’m ready now.

Michael Simmons 33:37

How do you think about if we wanted to, like when you were saying that as like, a part of me was like, I want to be able to think about all those things and feel those things with words. How would you recommend developing that taste? Or almost like a lens of seeing on the world? That’s very, it’s like a microscopic lens.

Jessica Hagy 33:55

Yeah, I think, um, one, just read whatever you want all the time. And it can be really goofy, silly stuff. And when you do find a word that when you don’t know or just sounds good to you, like, lately, there’s been a thing about how these all these terrible medical terms sound like really beautiful girls names like chlamydia. And that whole thing is like one of those. Oh, wow, that’s, that’s really cool. Like, how do we name things? And why don’t? Why don’t these names stick? And like what are hilarious names for people and putting, putting things like that together? Just like that were just sounds like what does that word sound like? And playing with things like that and letting yourself be super goofy about it?

Michael Simmons 34:41

That’s really funny. What is your I know you have children and how to are you constantly recognizing words are your husband and they’re like, did they get it? Are they in? Are they noticing things? Are you weird out to them?

Jessica Hagy 34:55

I think I’ve I’ve always been talking to my small child. As if he were like a large person, because if I can just speak like this constantly, the little baby would go to sleep. So he has since become very, he’s a very articulate little person. And he’s always asking what words mean. And he’s very desperate to know what the C word is right now. Yeah. And we’ve been giving him lots of different words that start with C, and he’s sort of sussing out that we’re lying to him. And he’s very like, like, very on the track of listening to how adults speak. And even on his his zoom yesterday, like I heard how his linguistics are echoed by our linguistics. And he said to his teacher, so I think what you’re trying to say, I’m just gonna recap your point. And I was like,

Michael Simmons 35:48

How old is he?

Jessica Hagy 35:49

He’s seven.

Michael Simmons 35:50

Is that? Uh, oh, my God. That’s hilarious.

Jessica Hagy 35:53

Yeah, like they all they’re all. They’re living in the same soup? We are.

Michael Simmons 35:58

This is this is jumping topics a little bit. But you know, in the course, we talk about the power of, well, just at 20s. First of all of that, yeah, writing is a huge thing, a lot of different skill sets. So trying to find things that are higher leverage. So number one is the value hooked of the title, the image that people see when the first that’s the first thing 80% of people are going to see that and not even read the article. So and then even within that, in the course, we talked about the idea of trademark words, ideas, so when you have an idea, coining of word.

Jessica Hagy 36:34

So this is a book from the 80s. Have you did you guys remember these?

Michael Simmons 36:41

No. Never seen that. Okay.

Jessica Hagy 36:43

It was like, it was on like a late night show. And they’d make up words like nurgle, a person who leaves his Christmas lights up all year. These are totally like your, like portmanteau. Build your own word and sort of own it. Like, yeah, I only I only just interjected that because it was on my desk.

Michael Simmons 37:05

Yeah. How do you think about coining words for yourself? Or just what’s the process there? You talked a little bit about how you feel like sometimes there’s a word that should exist. How do you think about it for and for it, maybe even stating in a way where other folks hear when they have knowledge, and they feel like a word should exist? How would you recommend pointing a word or thinking about it?

Jessica Hagy 37:27

So you talked about sort of counterintuitive ideas and how that sort of like that does get your brain like, Wait, what? And I think putting oxymorons together and then explaining them is super fun. Like, that’s always a, like the power of industrial laziness. Okay, like, let’s just go from there and like, take that as a phrase. And like riff on it long enough, then all of a sudden, like you’ve got a Malcolm Gladwell outline, right?

Michael Simmons 37:55

Can you give a like, how would you go from industrial laziness to Malcolm Gladwell outline?

Jessica Hagy 38:01

Yeah, so like, okay, industrial laziness is just like choosing days that you’re not going to do something. You’re going to recharge your brain. I’m just making I’m bullshitting right now. I’m just making this up. Yeah, you’re gonna recharge your brain and we’re gonna, like, put this out and everyone’s gonna work for four days a week instead of seven. And you know what? It’ll be full employment just because we all get lazy and creative at once.

Michael Simmons 38:20

Mm hmm.

Jessica Hagy 38:22

Now let’s sell his book like I. But yeah, like playing with playing with contrasting things will always supply some sort of argumentative fuel.

Michael Simmons 38:34

Perfect.

Outro 38:36

Creating a Sustainable Feedback Loop with Niklas Goeke

Jun 16, 2021 // by michaeld // Podcast // No Comments

Niklas Goeke is a writer reaching over 500,000 monthly readers with a personally-curated email list of 70,000 subscribers. His work has been published in Business Insider, CNBC, Fast Company, and many more. He is also the Founder and CEO of Four Minute Books, leading a small team that publishes free and daily book summaries from non-fiction bestsellers.

In the past five years, he has created several courses to help writers create better content and strive to control their craft development, including his flagship course Write Like A Pro, where he teaches writing to over 100 creatives. Niklas has been featured as a Top Writer in over 10 topics on Medium and was named Top Writer in 2017 and 2018 on Quora.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

Niklas Goeke shares what inspired him to become a writer.
What is a soul market fit and how does it help to become a writer?
Can early monetization be detrimental to your writing career?
The Four-Minute-Book Strategy.
The deliberate practice of writing.
Niklas shares his shift from focusing on grammar to creativity.
How do you create a daily feedback loop?
Niklas shares his approach to writing his book and the difference between an article and writing a book.
Is self-publishing the way to go?
Niklas recalls how case studies allowed him to expand his perspective.
Hiring characters from different stories to tell your story.

In this episode…

Storytelling is one of the oldest forms of communication known to humans. Stories are constantly being retold and enhanced with each generation—and this is nothing new! The only difference between these stories is two-fold: how we tell them and who experiences them.

Niklas Goeke, a writer and author, understands that our stories differ based on life experiences. So, he’s developed an interesting strategy for getting his point across in writing: using characters from movies and tv shows to demonstrate his point.

Join us for this week’s episode of The Michael Simmons Show as host Michael Simmons sits down with Niklas Goeke, a renowned writer. They discuss creating a soul-market fit for your writing, deliberate practice, and how early monetization can ruin your writing career. Niklas shares how he creates a daily feedback loop and limits distractions in his writing space. He also shares his writing routine and how it has changed over the years. Stay tuned.

Resources Mentioned in this episode

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by my company, Seminal.

We help you create blockbuster content that rises above the noise, changes the world, and builds your business.

To learn about creating blockbuster content, read my article: Blockbuster: The #1 Mental Model For Writers Who Want To Create High-Quality, Viral Content

Episode Transcript

Intro 0:02

Michael Simmons 0:14

Today, we have Nik Goeke, I have been friends with Nik from for several years now. And so it’s really been awesome to watch him grow. I spoke with him when he was just getting started. And over the past few years, he’s just really blown up. He’s written many hundreds of articles that have been read 10s of millions of times, he’s also created a website fourminutebooks.com, you’ve probably seen it when you search a book name, it does really well in the search results. And it gets hundreds of 1000s of views per month. And he’s another person that’s just an example of being very consistent. We’re gonna talk about his writing routine and how he guards his writing time. And just doing that over the years. He’s also an example of someone where you can’t make excuses about being too busy, because he really built his writing while he was getting a Master’s, from the university in Germany. So without further ado, I give you Nik. All right. Welcome to the podcast, Nik.

Niklas Goeke 1:20

Glad to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Michael Simmons 1:22

I’ve been saying how excited I’ve been to to do this call and just really admire your journey from starting in your early 20s in writing to being where you are now at 29. And I was curious, when did you start writing? I became aware of you in 2015. But how far into it? Were you at that point?

Niklas Goeke 1:42

That was pretty early. I think I started at the end of 2014, September 2014. I think I published my first blog post on my blog. That was a that was a public kind of writing thing.

Michael Simmons 1:56

And did you have any intentions that Okay, I’m going to Well, I guess you’d be create a blog, you’re going to plan to write a lot. But did you have any structure to it? Were okay, I’m gonna post once a week about this topic and see what happens. And I want to accomplish this goal and be a writer or is it just testing.

Niklas Goeke 2:12

It was

Niklas Goeke 2:17

given how I think, subconsciously how determined I was to be a writer, I didn’t really know it. And I didn’t have a lot of structure when I first came to it as a activity kind of, because the idea to be a writer came to me in 2012, I think, and but it was all very, very subliminal kind of I couldn’t really express it or formulate it. And it wasn’t like I had a certain goal, a certain income goal or anything like that. So when I started in 2014, was super experimental. And the blog was also a result of some experiments I’ve done in the months leading up to it with building websites, learning some WordPress design, things like that. So I literally just decided to write about the few topics that were on my mind at the time. And I have some ideas, let me get these out. And then go from there and just keep learning and adjusting as I go. And then I think over the next few months became a little more structured. And then yeah, just the structure came as I went along kind of initially was very fun. And just let me try this. And this will be fun to put together kind of driven.

Michael Simmons 3:14

Yeah. And what made you in 2012 even be interested in writing or what was the thing there was the inspiration.

Niklas Goeke 3:23

I think the the the, one of the fastest ways I can trace it back or points I can trace it back to is interestingly, it was my statistics professor in the United States. So I was on exchange. I was on exchange at UMass Dartmouth, which is I think it’s a public. It’s a state school, I think, in Massachusetts. And I took a statistics class to try and not have to do my statistics class in Germany, because it was super hard. And the professors in Germany agreed you have to get agreements. And they agreed to it. If I take these two statistics classes in the United States, then I wouldn’t have to do it in Germany, and I could just transfer the credits. So I did that. And luckily one of the classes, the teacher, I think his name was Gary Davis. He was great. We talked about a lot of things, and he actually made us start to blog for the class. So we had to do a, yeah, we had to do a WordPress blog and do our statistics homework every week on the blog with outputs from software, graphs and stuff. And we have to do that. And in the course of that we like he taught us a lot or told us a lot about the people in this blogging space, which were at the time, like Tim Ferriss, James Alger. So basically he mentioned those names to us. And I think that was the first time I heard about them.

Michael Simmons 4:41

You got exposed to it. Then in 2012, you had a little bit of posts, then 2014 you jump in? How many posts have you now done? It’s been about six years now. And you had to guess,

Niklas Goeke 4:54

probably around 2000, maybe, definitely well over 1000. So I think it’s it’s got to be somewhere Between all the all the pieces I’ve done on all the different websites should be around

Michael Simmons 5:04

2000, I think. And so many people start writing online and 99% of the people, they’re kind of reaching a friends and family audience that they’re already followed that they know personally on LinkedIn, probably not really any strangers. And how do how do you account for you being such an outlier?

Niklas Goeke 5:25

You mean in terms of just sticking with it just consistency or?

Michael Simmons 5:29

Yeah, that you’ve really know that audience? And yeah, you know, right. If you try reaching over 40 million people, I mean, kind of crazy ride. Sometimes it’s just a number. But when you actually take a step back, I mean, that’s crazy. Yeah, that’s,

Niklas Goeke 5:40

yeah, that’s the that’s true. Yeah. And I guess it’s the consistency also, that drives the results At the end of the day, right. So it’s kind of like the same, same thing. Um, I would say that a big part was that I started it as a fun driven thing. That was the sort of it was I was passionate about it. I had fun writing. I always had fun writing, even at school doing essays and things like that. And then I sort of picked that back up. And I somewhat professionalized it right? I gave some more structure to it. And then having a blog and creating a newsletter and so on and creating some accountability to the audience. Even if the audience was super small in the beginning, I think it took me took me six months or more to get my first 1000 email subscribers. So it was like a long time, it will didn’t take off like a rocket ship or anything.

Michael Simmons 6:28

How often were you posting in those first six months?

Niklas Goeke 6:32

I think I started with the almost weekly schedule, doing these mini posts. And then I got more into case studies and more in depth content. And then I was posting probably two to three times a month for a while.

Michael Simmons 6:43

Okay, so not even a huge volume. You’re still kind of testing it out.

Niklas Goeke 6:47

Yeah, yeah. No, initially not. I went from short to longer. And then I just kept kept exploring. But I think Yeah, the fun part, the accountability part that sort of came with it. And then the other thing, I think there was a little bit, it’s probably a smallest factor. But it is a factor is I always get competitive about things. So I was playing video games in high school and trying to compete with friends for pro gamer points and things like that. And so there was a little bit of once once I started being also in the sphere and talking to other people, there was a little bit of sort of competitiveness to it, not in the sense that, oh, this guy’s in the same niche as me. Let me try to get more investors. It’s more just a general kind of, Okay, this person is posting a lot. What can I do? So this as a motivation kind of thing?

Michael Simmons 7:36

Yeah, it’s interesting. As a side thing, I interviewed Nicolas Cole. And he was talking, he grew, he was one of the best World of Warcraft players in the country and high school. And so he became interested in he did he did like, hundreds of videos, I think, for that. And so that when he switched to writing, right, in 2014, he started, he had that base of understanding storytelling and gaming. So gaming was an interesting, he knew what it takes to improve as a gamer and move up the scoreboard and things like that.

Niklas Goeke 8:06

Yeah, it’s quite similar. And it’s quite similar in in many ways, I think.

Michael Simmons 8:12

And so for you with, you know, you know, in our course, on seminar, we help people write blockbuster articles, and get into the habit. And these are people who are older, often, you know, let’s say 30s 40s, and so on. And there’s that balance between, okay, I want to do something that’s gonna make me money, there’s a market for it. There’s more of a product market fit. And then, you know, the other side is the soul market fit. And so it sounds like in the beginning, you’re optimizing for soul market fit, really focusing on fun? And how do you think about that balance? And how has that evolved for you over time?

Niklas Goeke 8:50

I think for me, it was extremely helpful that I didn’t see a way to make money with my writing at first. And it wasn’t as obvious in the options that we had, there was no sub stack, where it’s created a paid email newsletter in a couple clicks, there was no Patreon. Or they were just starting. And they were very small, there was no medium partner program. So none of these options for easy quote unquote, monetization existed. And so I think, for me, that really helped because it was driven by the fun part. And I realized even just sitting down writing that I enjoyed the activity in and of itself, would keep doing it. And if 10 people read it, and one person said, this is awesome, then there was a great reward for me. And I think that really helped not quit along the way. Because I think nowadays, what happens with these easy monetization options, just because easy to monetize, it makes it look like it’s easy to make a lot of money, but that’s never the case. And so people get frustrated if the money doesn’t come immediately. And so I think the fun part or focusing on that or not monetizing if you if you can afford to, if you’re not trying to force it to work initially, that really helps.

Michael Simmons 9:50

Interesting. So yeah, actually never thought about that actually, having early monetization could actually hurt you. Do you have those expectations? For how long did it take you to make your first dollar from writing in any form

Niklas Goeke 10:02

that didn’t take too long. So

Niklas Goeke 10:04

I started writing on the blog, I also started freelancing on the side and I started translating tried German English, because there was my, I’m German born and raised. And then I went to the US to study and I’ve always been fascinated by English, reading English books, and so on. So I started there. And then from there, I also quickly got some, some referrals, and also just reach out to people on Facebook and stuff. And I got some gigs to write articles for a company, blogs, travel sector, and so on. And so I think within a few months, I was already earning a little bit at least, like 50 euros an article 100 euros an article here and there. So you’re more doing

Michael Simmons 10:40

it like as a freelancer, for other people are translating, but how long until you actually made money, let’s say directly from like, Hey, I’m Nik, I create courses or I get paid directly for the articles I want to write.

Niklas Goeke 10:58

That part I think that was about a little over a year, probably 15 months, because in 2016, late 2015, I started Four Minute Books. And that was the first sort of structure project where I was like, I’m in control of the content and the monetization and everything like that. And it’s a simple affiliate model for the website. But that started working sort of immediately as I created it, and it

Michael Simmons 11:22

was awesome. So can you for people who don’t know, what Four Minute Books is, Can you kind of tell what it is, and just the background of the story on it a little bit?

Niklas Goeke 11:32

Sure, basically, Four Minute Books is a collection of now over 800 Book Summaries free online, and you can find a lot of them via Google, if you happen to search for Book Summaries for popular books. Each summary is about 1000 words, so should be readable in around four minutes. Depending on your reading speed. Each one has just like three lessons from the book. So it’s not a comprehensive summary by any means. But it’s a short excerpt, you can learn something from from some great books and authors for free. And yeah, that’s a that’s a that’s about it. And so, I did this initially, mostly to create a very much more consistent writing schedule, or much more frequent, I should say, I was trying to find something that I could write every single day publish every single day. And this was sort of this sort of, I just put this together as a structure. And then I realized I could put some monetization on it and potentially make it into a project that might

Michael Simmons 12:27

work. And this is going back to routines, I asked this, I find it really interesting of all the elements that go into it. If you’re doing two to three times per month. Why did you want to do one? Once every day? Why was that important to you? And particularly publishing every day?

Niklas Goeke 12:46

Yes, I think so after that first year, in the first year, I did a lot. I did mostly freelancing. And and I was writing on the blog for free with writing. And I realized I didn’t make a lot of money. Um, I don’t know, probably, I don’t know, we’re like supposed to share numbers or not. But

Michael Simmons 13:00

if it makes you feel comfortable that the more the better so people can just understand what it’s actually right.

Niklas Goeke 13:05

I think I made around 20,000 in the first year that I was doing all of it. And

Michael Simmons 13:11

it was enough to get by I’m why you’re going to school full time. Full time.

Niklas Goeke 13:16

Yes, no, actually, that was after school. So I graduated with my bachelor’s in 2014. Then I did started this completely from scratch, having no experience, I was like, let me try to do this for a year. And after the first year, I did a second and then I went to get the masters and continue part time, so to speak. And now after five years, I’m doing it full time after I graduated with the masters and I’m done with school. Okay, okay, as a background, but so in the first year, I was freelancing, I was I was doing the writing on the blog, I was learning how to build an email list, online marketing, and so on, doing a whole bunch of other things. But I realized, okay, there’s some potential, I think I can make this work, I obviously need more time to figure out how to do it well, and stuff. But I also realized that the writing part on the blog was the most fun, and I really wanted to figure that part of the equation out. So I decided to try to minimize the freelancing and focus more on building something on myself. And at the same time, I realized my writing wasn’t that good yet. So I just needed to practice a lot. And also, I wanted to make whatever I was building work fast. So I thought if I publish once a day, that can’t be too bad. So I’m just going to commit to this project for the year. And that was my goal to publish every single day on the website for a year.

Michael Simmons 14:21

So it’s not like a challenge, not only to get the result, but also to get better at the skill of writing. So, yeah. How do you What’s your theory of deliberate practice for writing? or How did you think about that? In other words, where is just the act of writing and doing a huge quantity that will create the learning or were you trying to get coaching, study great writers practice it with each post.

Niklas Goeke 14:50

I was definitely trying to make each post a little better than the last one. Yeah, and the back then it started with things like grammar and I’m going back now and I find so many spelling errors and grammar mistakes in the in the older articles. But that’s, that’s where it started just reviewing everything from a very technical grammatical standpoint. That’s where it started. And then I was always trying, how can I be a little more creative with the summary? What kind of examples Can I draw on that I didn’t draw on before how and over time, I started being less focused on the books and more focused on the lessons. So I shifted away from what’s in the book, and how can I repeat that in sort of my own word and my own words versus saying, Okay, this is what the book talks about in the book makes this example. But maybe there’s an example in my life that is interesting to the reader. And then so that’s where the creativity part started. So I think was important to have the consistency

Michael Simmons 15:47

What made you make that shift? Putting yourself into it?

Niklas Goeke 15:51

That’s a good question.

Niklas Goeke 15:54

I think I honestly think it was boredom, I think at some point, when you’re doing it, and I had a fixed framework for how each article was supposed to look like, because it was supposed to be easy it was it was supposed to be easy to keep the routine. And it was at some point, because you have an input, you have output, and then you know how to get from A to B. And then I started getting a little bored myself. So I was like, how can I add some some twist to this to make it more fun for me again, and goes back to the passion thing? I think that not let writing become boring for myself. I think that’s when I started experimenting.

Michael Simmons 16:28

Interesting. Now I consider that a hallmark of your writing. It’s hard to imagine a time before that where I feel like you’re always sharing personal stories. And indeed, you At what point did you start writing on Quora? I actually I always pictured you starting on Quora first in my mind. Quora, I

Niklas Goeke 16:46

didn’t start until 2017. So at that point, oh, really, I think two and a half years.

Michael Simmons 16:51

At that point, you had developed a little bit of your storytelling. And now it seems like all your core posts are based off of rather than just sharing an answer to the question, you’re sharing a personal story that goes along with it and really pointing your voice and your storytelling.

Niklas Goeke 17:06

Yeah, Quora really helped in that regard. That’s what I was trying to after I did the 2016 experiment. And I had the 365 Book Summaries and the income was building from the site and it was starting to work, I dialed down, and I wrote one summary a week in the next year. And I said, Let’s let me go to Quora and try to do the same thing. And I only did it for about nine months. But I wrote a Quora answer every single day. And I definitely had an I felt like I had an advantage at that point going into the platform, because I knew a lot of basic storytelling things from from the summaries and stuff. But there’s also so much to learn there because now it was it was new audience, the topics were much broader, the potential to do examples was much broader, and so on. And I think those nine months also really, really helped me with my storytelling and stuff, and especially then expanding their content later and other places.

Michael Simmons 17:57

Yeah, really interesting. Because Yeah, Nicolas Cole, also, he started on Quora doing a daily post. I think he was doing daily for at least a year while he was doing it full time. I feel like Quora is interesting platform because for practicing that storytelling, and just getting that that feedback loop. How, if you’re advising a beginning writer, you know, you’re, there’s this idea of these challenges that you had like a one year challenge to do one post per day on on the book, Four Minute Books, and then nine months for Quora? Would you recommend somebody if they’re just getting started, that it’s all about, get a daily feedback loop? And try to get better every post and keep, have fun?

Niklas Goeke 18:39

I think so. Yeah, I think the consistency in the beginning is the most important part. Because if you can’t find your way to that, then it’s very hard to to get to a point, if you want to be a full time writer at some point, or even, like make a part time income from it or something along those lines. If you want to do it in a professional capacity, I think the consistency is pretty much the most important part. And you need that as a sort of baseline

Niklas Goeke 19:03

To first of all, to get to build audience to get stuff out there to get better to practice. But also to show yourself that you can rely on yourself with the writing so that even if you just want to if you want to do freelance for example, and you know, okay, I have something to deliver by this deadline and so on, you want to be able to get that done whenever you need to. So you can be professional literally. So I think that really the whole consistency part is is very big,

Michael Simmons 19:29

really interesting. And you know, now you’re making a really big shift with wanting to do longer form. And, you know, books where you know, the the feedback loop would be a lot longer, what is going to percept precipitating this change and how are you thinking about it in the scheme of yourself as a writer while you’re passionate about your competitive advantages as a writer and trying to break above the noise and even just the online world right now where it is 2000 end of 2020 and there’s all these platforms and ways to monetize online.

Niklas Goeke 20:05

Think from day one from way back in 2012, I was reading James Altucher’s blog, things like that it was always appealing to me to sort of just sit in a room and write and have that be my job. And then I close the laptop, and I’m done. Kind of that was a, that was always a big appeal to me. And of course, I wasn’t sure if that’s even if I can even make that work, right, if that would work as a mode of working for me, and so on.

Niklas Goeke 20:28

But now, now, I think I do enough. But over the years, as I went back and forth on doing freelance doing other work, and so on, the writing was always consistent, it was always there. But it was, I think it was never, I was never to the point where I was literally just writing like writing basically creating more, whatever form it takes books or posts or medium blogs, whatever. I’ve never really gone there. And so I was thinking that now might be the time to try that. And if I have this full exposure to writing, if I’m literally writing in the morning, writing in the afternoon, how does that feel? Yeah, will that good? Good, be good for me or not? My gut feeling tells me it’s gonna be good. And I’m enjoying it so far. But yeah, so it was really, it was very driven by what do I want every day to look like this whole? I think it’s probably a question and both around online, right? You ask, don’t ask yourself, like, what you want, or how you want to feel like, as you said, what should everyday look like what would be like my ideal daily routine and work backwards from there.

Michael Simmons 21:25

And so for you, you really came across that you want your day to be focused as much as possible on writing, not as a managing people or administration part, which is essentially other share for myself, I can really see the consequences of the models you choose for innovation, or for for monetization, if you choose to create a course, then you’re going to be spending years understanding and conversion funnels, and you’re gonna create a course. And then you’re gonna need to learn how to create courses, which is no easy thing. It’s easy to put up a course, but to actually create a transformative course, because learning loop, yeah, and so, you know, all of a sudden, like you’re writing part time, again, like an hour to a day max or something like that. And so by is part of it by writing a book or choosing that sort of monetization, or even like, if somebody were to choose a sub stack, you’re getting paid directly for your writing, you don’t need to learn, the writing promotes itself in a way your body of work.

Niklas Goeke 22:22

Yes, and, and over the years, as you write letters, you have some some variables, some do better, some, some don’t. But I feel I’m at the point where if I create something really substantial, and it’s of substantial value to the people who read it, there’s going to be enough people spreading that around, so that I can kind of rely on it to if it’s monetized some somehow have a good like returned for me. And in terms of the creative part I and I’ve done like courses and stuff like that. And I agree, right, it’s quickly it quickly becomes another job. And I like doing these things occasionally. But I have to feel in control about the time that I spent there versus how much time I spent writing. And sometimes I got sucked into these other commitments, where I and it ended up being the opposite. And I was scrambling to find the time to be writing. And I always hated that. And

Michael Simmons 23:17

how do you think about it, I try to really guard my time, I have to really fight for my writing time, like on the weekends. And like in the mornings, I’m always trying to meetings are always trying to creep up in the morning, I’m always trying to push them back. And also, I’d have to fight my own tendencies that I see an opportunity to do something. And that’s like, you know, for you, I know you have lots of publications that you manage on medium. And on Quora for me, we have seven different Facebook groups. Just yesterday, I was just drafting the post to announce a new Facebook group, I’m like, let me just hold off here. Like, I want to create another Facebook group. But uh, how do you battle all those different forces and really stay true to that.

Niklas Goeke 23:59

One thing I’m doing. So I think I’m my own worst enemy. So in terms of in terms of distractions, very easy for me to give in to them in terms of opportunity, very easy for me to want to jump on everything. Of course, also. And that becomes more difficult as you get more opportunity. Because the further you go, the better the opportunities you have to let go of. So yeah, really cool and awesome things. And that gets even it gets harder. It’s easy in the beginning, when people are just trying to sort of take advantage of, I don’t know, whatever platform you have, for example, it’s like easy to turn that down. But once the opportunities become really good, it gets harder and harder. But one thing I do is my phone is basically dead. It’s it’s new, it’s always on mute, basically. No real notifications, nothing pops up. I always keep it facedown somewhere else where I can access it that really helps in the morning. And other than that, it’s once I get going and once I get into the flow writing is enough fun to sort of keep me there. But of course it’s always easy to get sucked into some rabbit hole. But I’m also trying to account for that. So for example, if I’m researching something, and I’m going way deeper with the research for the article about some character or some historical figure reading the whole Wikipedia article, I think that’s actually fine, because that’s the kind of research that also drives creativity. I don’t know what might fall onto the page as a result of me reading that article later. I think that’s okay. And that’s the kind of procrastination I want to make room for. Whereas other procrastination just being stuck in my inbox for two hours, doesn’t help anything, I have to be really careful about.

Michael Simmons 25:31

And one thing I’ve a lot of questions I want to ask here, you’ve jumped around on a lot of different topics as a writer. Yes. And you know that is your picture someone like Tim Ferriss or Joe Rogan? Don’t people jump around, jump around? every few years, let’s say like Malcolm Gladwell, every four years he might jump around the topic where some people jump around every article is a very different topic. How do you feel about the choices you made, there following your curiosity, which maximizes your fun that maybe you’re not known for the world top expert in it.

Niklas Goeke 26:14

I think it’s probably hard to know in advance when you when you start out. But if you know, you have the long term vision of being an author, writer, very focused on the creative part, then I think that’s not a big problem. If you don’t have this niche, if you don’t have this niche, this this expertise, and if it takes a few years, if you’re doing it sort of the slow way, I think I was writing about habits a lot for a while. And I got some reputation, I think relatively early on for that. But then I diverged, especially at Quora, I was answering questions all over the place. And but for me, because I wasn’t, I wasn’t in a in a rush, so to speak, to monetize, especially at first. And that definitely helps. So when you want to monetize, especially, that helps I think early on to have a niche and be known for something if you have something you’re very passionate about, and you feel like you have a lot of things to say about that might be also easier for you. So I think in terms of money is probably the more profitable route. But for me, for example, I was covering productivity a lot early on. And after five or six mega posts, I felt like I ran out. I had my system down, I had nothing to say at the time. And I could have kept coming up with things. But it felt kind of fake,

Michael Simmons 27:26

because I wasn’t right. And so for you, you mentioned something there that you had your system down. So for you, are you writing articles that can apply to your life as well as part of what makes it fun for you that it’s not purely teaching other people? It’s okay, I want to research this article on productivity because I’m struggling with this part of it.

Niklas Goeke 27:45

Yes, I think that that’s why productivity was one of the first topics I was drawn to as well, because I hadn’t really read a lot of books on that topic or anything of the sort. And from getting into knowing Tim Ferriss thought his whole 8020 thing approach that he had to everything, and learning about habits. And so I tried to just piece together my own little system for for what works. And I did and I ended up sharing that along the way. So there was definitely some let me go out and do something that I can actually write about that has some substance. Because especially in the beginning, and if you’re not practiced if you don’t have the discipline yet, you can just it’s much harder, at least to sit down and just come up with something on the blank page. That which now I have more confidence on, people always ask me how Where do you get all the ideas, and I say, usually I have a folder full of ideas, like I have more ideas than I can ever write about, right? So I can if I sit for like, if I sit down long enough and stare at the page, something’s gonna come up, and then I’ll just write about that. But in the beginning, especially, it really helps when you feel you have your first dry slump or whatever. And you feel like okay, I can just go out I can do something, and then I can come back and report on it.

Michael Simmons 28:48

Yeah, so I think one thing, you know, I’m taking away from you. And I think very similar is like there’s if you have a long term perspective, that that makes a really big difference. And most people don’t, who you’re going to give up really quickly, if you’re a long term perspective, even if you’re not going the absolute fastest way doesn’t really matter. Because long term, you end up in the same place, but on some level, and I ask this because I’m thinking about this for myself. I’ve written a lot of articles on learning how to learn. And now, you know, I’m thinking about how to do a book around that and how to combine the articles and things like that, in retrospect, knowing what you know. Now, of course, you had to do everything you did to get where you are now. So are you happy with yourself? You can’t regret it. But would you have created a book once you’ve done all these articles on productivity and habits? Would you have written a book on it and be like, okay, now I’m going to combine those into an article and then move on.

Niklas Goeke 29:41

Hmm, I don’t think so. The funny thing is one of the first things I did was write a book actually, it was about it was super tiny. It was about googling

Niklas Goeke 29:53

Because I started some an article series about how to Google because I was just trying it was around productivity. I was trying to share helpful things. And that was like, man, if only everyone knew how to Google because I find myself thinking so often you can google the answer to this in two seconds. And if you know how to Google, and especially how to go deep into Google and find very specific things, that you’re just going to accelerate your own learning so much. And

Michael Simmons 30:15

so it’s so true. I mean, people, it’s one of those categories of things that people are like, I know how to Google like, why should I read a book on googling? But then no, like, there’s actually, yeah, a huge difference in your life. Okay, so you’re, you’re working on this book? And

Niklas Goeke 30:32

yeah, so So I started as an article series, and then it got so long and expensive. I was like, Oh, this should actually be like a small self published book. And I did that I was writing like, crazy for a week had all these screenshots and stuff. And I did self publish, I think was in 2014. Still, so was one of the very earliest things that I’ve done, and of course, totally bombed. I had no audience, the call was terrible. I made it myself. So there was a lot of marketing lessons learned there. But how many books did you sell at that point? A handful of copies, five to 10, or something. Okay,

Michael Simmons 31:01

so not not a lot, interesting.

Niklas Goeke 31:03

Yeah. And so and then I dialed back really hard on the whole book thing, and I started thinking a lot more about it. And now, I mean, so many books published, like at least 1 million, I think of traditionally published ones, let alone the self published ones every year, right. And after that, I’ve never really felt this, I have this killer idea, whether it’s a concept like the five second rule, or a Miracle Morning, you know, these very grippy concepts, come up with where you’re like, this is something I can really make into a book. And the book helps drive the initial concept home, even if the concept can be explained in the blog post. But the book has a sense, a bigger message. Yeah, and I haven’t had that until this point. But um, so that’s why I was now going I want to start with self publishing books, I want to start with the more what you said. So I have a lot of content on certain topics. So let me try the bundle some up in a cool way is going to be a short book, that’d be cheap, mostly for my audience. And if it ends up taking off or leading to a bigger book, that’s fine. But not to this, this traditional book, big, big scale kind of effort, where I feel like I have to let that come to me. And I still haven’t had this like, oh, man, this has to be a nonfiction. Traditional bestseller, whatever,

Michael Simmons 32:08

huh, really interesting. So for you, you feel like a good time to go into books was number one, you have a much higher skill set a few years later, you have a larger audience. And then you really found a hook that you feel like can really work? And how, you know, there’s always a tension between, you know, people who follow you have already read a lot of your articles. How much are you starting from scratch? versus how are you? Are you taking articles and just glueing them together? or How are you thinking about going up to that next level.

Niklas Goeke 32:37

So with the first one, one of the topics, I ended up covering over time, a lot of self love, or self validation, confidence, whatever you want to call it, but looking in the mirror, and feeling good about yourself, not smug, but good. Yeah. And so I have a whole bunch of articles. And I just, I just tried to collect all the articles I had 20 30 40 was sort of related to the topic. And I’m just trying to put structure to it, and have the book sort of tell its own story, work the articles into this story in the ones that work, but then also do adapting, editing, maybe do bridges, seguess between the articles. So I’m thinking of it like essay or blog post Compendium, which I think most books are nowadays anyways. And that’s the format. Also, you want to keep the reader’s attention, you can do this, if you’re not doing novels, at least, it’s very hard to have, like, very dense, dense pages of pages of that material

Michael Simmons 33:29

I was gonna ask you about that is, you know, I’m thinking about the learning book and around the five hour rule. And it’s like, on the one hand, there’s like a Malcolm Gladwell style of storytelling, which I don’t do in articles, I’m more give a quick summary of like the big ideas, but he’s more like, and the researcher like, was born here. And then they grew up and then became really fascinated in this idea. And then they did this study. And here’s the design of the study. And here’s like one of the participants in the study. So there’s a huge storytelling around one study. And I feel like it’s a little bit easier to do that in an article or in a book format. Versus in a so what I’m asking is, are you going to change your writing at all, or I feel like what I heard you say is you actually know you’re going to keep it still an article style, because people appreciate those short get to the point, ways of doing it.

Niklas Goeke 34:16

I think for I think for this first effort that I’m trying where it’s basically stitching articles together, but also really thinking about how that translates in translates into a book as a different format. Because I know a book and articles, very different contexts, then some people just you can throw just articles in a book as a collection, but then there’s pieces missing, sort of bridges between the pieces and so on are missing that the reader can walk over kind of so I’m really trying to make a big effort with the editing and everything so that it actually becomes feels like a wholesome like a whole book, rather than feel bad. But in terms of style, I think I’m going to keep it I’m going to keep it where it is also have subheads between the articles so that’s shorter sections and

Michael Simmons 34:57

visual so people can pop in. If they’re Waiting in line on their Kindle and get something valuable, then it’s okay. Leave it. Yes. Yeah, it’s interesting. I’ve been wrestling with that of there’s like the, the Four Hour Body book here somewhere. But I feel like that was a very interesting design book where it’s very modular. You know, each chapter could be a small book on its own right. And it’s very, you don’t need to assert you don’t need the previous chapter to understand that chapter. So that’s one way of writing out another way of writing is really building up on top of each other, the first book is making the case for this huge thing. And then second half is more about how to, how are you kind of drawing those lines? I think,

Niklas Goeke 35:40

I think mine is. Because we’re going to be about self love as a concept, I’m going to try to have some very brief definition, a story that kind of makes the definition and makes a case for it. What is this? Why is it important? How do you get it? Why is it more of a behaviour rather than a trait and just clear up some misconceptions and try to set like the concept itself, and then the rest is going to be connected stories that help you with certain aspects of implementing this concept into your life, but very story driven, like the articles, sort of leading with different examples, different stories, and then where it becomes a sort of passive thing where I feel like it’s, I feel like I want it to be a book where, first of all, you can read random pages, you can read subsections. And there’s a little story in there. And that makes you feel good about satisfying your curiosity that kind of, but then also, if you read the whole book in either one goal or in slow doses, kind of, then you start feeling better about yourself. So it’s not necessarily a super practice driven super, do this exercise, do that exercise, it’s more something you like a book that when you close it, close it and you put it down, you feel a little better about yourself, you feel good about your day.

Michael Simmons 36:51

Yeah, interesting. It’s interesting that, you know, going on, I feel like it’s the publishing industry is getting to a point now where somebody like you, you don’t, and Nicolas Cole, too, is, you know, you’re going more the self publishing route, you don’t need the credibility of a major publisher. And that also creates more room for creativity, you don’t have to do a book that’s 212 pages that’s on the shelf of Amazon, or Barnes and Noble or something like that. So how do you think about almost this new format of these shorter books? How long is it? How much are you gonna charge for it? Is your plan to how often you’re going to create these in your mind?

Niklas Goeke 37:30

So I haven’t thought or thought about everything, right. But I can tell you what I thought about so far, which is that I don’t know how long it’s going to be. But I think it might be around 30 essays, and I don’t know, total might be 150 pages, maybe 100, I guess also depends on which format you’re going to get it in. But I don’t think it’s going to be a super long book. And I’m also not trying to make it artificially long. And I’m thinking about charging, at least for the digital version, and making it super cheap, sort of this mass market paperback idea where cost two, three bucks, where you get it, and then if you think is really good, you’re like, I can’t believe this cost three bucks. Right? Really good value for for three bucks. And it’s easy to sort of share and pass on. Sort of maybe like you would find a very meaty or like long blog post where someone explains more technical concepts in great detail and just takes a lot of space, but in a more inspirational creative form. And I think I’m going to do that. And I have ideas for I think 567 of those books, looking at the topics and articles that I have. We’ll see. I don’t know how often I can I can put them together, but maybe try to do one every three months or?

Michael Simmons 38:43

Yeah, yeah. Oh, God, that’s awesome. And how are you thinking about, there’s always a balancing of what mediums one publishes on what formats and what platforms because there’s a trade off that the more time you spend on book writing grew to have less time to do medium. And you know, a lot of people, they might jump from one platform to another too soon. And there’s always a learning curve for each platform. How? How are you thinking about with that with yourself of Okay, I’m gonna stop writing somewhere else less? And then how would you advise other people think about how long to focus on a medium or platform before switching?

Niklas Goeke 39:23

I think that’s mostly that should mostly be a function of When did you start writing? how consistent Are you with your writing habit? And how much deliberate practice Have you done towards this whole I could be a professional writer, I could charge freelance, I could charge for freelance clients for my articles. So you can do all of that at the first year. It doesn’t matter if you spend it on one or three platforms. I think one might actually help you with the marketing aspects, understanding those because it takes time to understand even one platform and might also have you with the consistency and with getting better because you’re catering to that platform audience whether its core, a medium substack something But, and then after that first year or two, depending, if you can find a rhythm and find find consistency and find a regular habit, then you can maybe think more strategically about if you haven’t before, where do I want to be long term? And where do I want to sort of set up shop and and then also maybe just as an experimentation factor for your deliberate practice, go somewhere else. And, for example, antic bones, bunch of Quora questions on top of writing medium articles, I think you’ll naturally find that sort of once you get somewhat bored with the existing framework that you have, because you’re so consistent that you start to feel the routine literally becoming a bit boring. And then I think that’s gonna unfold on its own kind of,

Michael Simmons 40:42

yeah, yeah. And one thing that I think is interesting as a topic is voice and storytelling, I haven’t done as much personal storytelling, and I always struggle with it. And I think I realized recently that one of the reasons I struggle with personal storytelling is when I’m feeling like I’m researching or building an idea. I feel like I’m really understanding it better, and then I can apply it to my life selfishly, but sometimes I get bored with trying to think about my life, or what was the interesting stories around there? And yeah, I look at what am I getting out of it? I guess I could see I’m rewriting my own story. At some level, every time you think about it, it changes that but what makes personal storytelling fun for you? I’ll start off with

Niklas Goeke 41:30

Um, I think there’s, there’s one of the things is the lesson I think that was on Quora, because on Quora, I learned that most nonfiction writing or especially shorter pieces, answers, blog posts, should most often have a clear takeaway. And the way you if you can provide them with your own example, that just a powerful story that has the novelty factor that people haven’t heard. So I think it starts there, what adds to it is that it helps you process my own story, I’m thinking about it again, I’m reflecting on it, I’m trying to learn something from it. So it’s, it’s it has this meditative aspect to it. Um, then there’s also learning how to how to manage that because you don’t want to come across as gloating or bragging. Um, so it’s sort of practicing trying to stay humble in a way also in your in your writing. Because if you’re, if you’re writing about someone else, and it’s a great person, it’s very easy to you can say, good things about them. But then when you’re doing that with your own story, you don’t want to look like you’re holding your own.

Michael Simmons 42:36

And then when I was 16 years old, I made a momentous decision that Yeah. Okay, so. But I, for me, gravitate towards other examples or case studies of other people. Yep. Is it ever sometimes with our own story, it’s hard to see ourselves from a third person perspective and be like, Oh, this is an interesting story. Do you ever have that with yourself of how do you find those really interesting stories? Or is it not really about the most interesting story, it’s how you tell it.

Niklas Goeke 43:09

Sometimes it’s about how you tell it, but I’m also not trying to force it. So I’m also I’m using a lot of examples. Some of my articles are just drawing together different examples that none of which are me, to make a point. And I found that important, and also fun at some point to and I think that’s also where I started at the beginning was less personal than it became a little more personal. And then I have phases where I write more personal stories and less depending on how much happens in my life, and so on, because I’m not trying to force it and pull the example, for something from everywhere, because I can’t right now, I’m not ever like you don’t have experiences for everything and relevant and fun experiences also all the time. So I’m not trying to force it. And it’s more it’s more retroactive, I think. So if it fits the post, and if I make a headline, for example, or I want to write about this topic, and then something immediately comes to mind, or as I’m researching and thinking about it, something comes back to my mind at some memory, then I’ll see if I can include it in a meaningful way, but not trying super hard to force these in there.

Michael Simmons 44:11

Are there any questions you ask yourself? to, you know, beyond? Okay, what are stories that relate to this topic? It sounds like it’s got a gut level, you just did anything come to mind. But I was curious in the beginning, is there a process you used it? You know, James Altucher, everyone has a different voice do James Altucher is like, When was I about to like give up on like life basically. Or like, he looks for those stories. I personally, I did a year of experimenting with vulnerability. And I just didn’t work on multiple levels. For me, I actually felt like it. finding those stories over and over made me more aware of them and like, change my self identity in a negative way. Okay, I’m curious how you how you think about it. I think once in a while those stories are good. That’s what I took away from me personally, but every day, right,

Niklas Goeke 44:57

right. And did you did you do some Did you have a practice? Or did you do some journaling or something? And then try to write about them in an article like you would share publicly? Or what was that process for

Michael Simmons 45:08

you, I did a year challenge where I just want to, you know, I’d read Brené Brown on vulnerability and James Altucher. And I want to just get better at having my own voice and experimenting with that. And so I made a commitment to write once a day on Facebook. And to make you know, I spend like an hour and to do something I thought really deeply true to me, but also like, walking the line of maybe sharing more than one would normally share as well. Right. And interesting. I think I just focused on like, here, the things I’ve done wrong, or things like that, versus that. And I think I could have shared, I think sometimes it’s good to share on things you did right as well, you know, so it’s like, you can’t go too far on the humble side as well.

Niklas Goeke 45:51

That’s all Yeah. For sure. Yeah. So you don’t end up beating up yourself in public kind of all the time. And then that’s going to have negative like on your reflect negatively on like, your day to day frame of mind?

Michael Simmons 46:02

Yeah.

Niklas Goeke 46:05

Interesting, interesting. For me. Yeah, the the vulnerability part is, of course, there’s always this question of, should I share this? How much should I share who share here, I’m a little afraid to hit publish. And some writers like James Altucher are very hard on that spectrum. And they feel like they don’t publish if they don’t think there might be some write negative repercussions or something. For me, it’s never been like that. Just as writing as I went on, I felt also bigger, the bigger the audience grows, the bigger the responsibility to be honest, and to try to hold yourself accountable, and yet, not talk about things that you, for example, have no clue about lie to the audience, things like that. So I think that’s also the piece where the accountability of the audience is one part where the vulnerability came in where at some point, I was like, I have to share this story. And because otherwise, people might people might think, something of me that ends up not being true if I don’t say this now, right? If I don’t speak up about this now. Right, right. So there’s that to it. But then the process of sort of finding the stories and the examples. Now it’s very gut feeling driven. And same as with the productivity system that I had in the beginning, the further I went on, the less of these structural things I felt I needed it, I have now it’s very natural for me to want to write and wake up and want to write something and share something. So always try to leave, come up with some intro lead the story in a way, whatever comes to mind and feels like it gets a good angle like it could work. And then just naturally, as I tell the story, we’ve been what comes to mind. And sometimes there’s big gaps there, right? I put away the story for a day or two, I researched some other things, and it ends up flowing in there. Sometimes it’s all it’s all in one goal. But now it’s very gut driven. I used to have Evernote and I saved a lot of articles, saving YouTube videos, and so on. But now it’s much more a reflection of whatever currently comes up. But I also do have a big stack at this point of stories and examples that I can draw on. Because, you know, a lot like that.

Michael Simmons 48:09

Yeah, yeah. Are they almost like, there’s like, next for me, the reader, maybe it feels like you have a new story every day, but from maybe it’s for you. And maybe there’s like 30 stories that really illustrate a lot of the key things you believe in? And you keep going back to those stories. Is it like that?

Niklas Goeke 48:26

Yeah, definitely. And I can see I can, I can sort of see or trace the stories by which examples come up more often. So there’s certain people that I’ve used or talked about multiple times. So when it’s the 8020 example, it’s the it’s the origin story of Pareto, the founder that I’ve talked about the man who came up with the concept that I’ve shared on multiple times. And then a lot of the early riders I read that I keep coming back to also to sometimes to see their progression, how have they evolved over the years? And what’s now a new example about this person that I can share? What’s the new angle on old story?

Michael Simmons 49:01

I draw out from movies, I love movies, TV shows, books, stories from books. When you share a movie, I haven’t done actually I just did, maybe for the first or second time referenced a movie. Yeah. And I’m always thinking like, the nine people, if you’ve watched it, and people love that TV show, like you did, then it’s great. But then a lot of people didn’t. Is there? Is there a way you think about and how effective of those that people really resonate with movie examples and TV shows,

Creating a Constructive Feedback Loop with Jono Hey, Chief Product Officer at Zen Educate

Jun 9, 2021 // by michaeld // Podcast // No Comments

Jono Hey is the Chief Product Officer of Zen Educate, an online staffing platform and social enterprise that directly connects schools and teachers. Jono is a product leader, startup veteran, and all-around guru when it comes to user experience research, design, business strategy, and product management. His invigorating and user-focused approach to the user experience has helped companies like Nutmeg.com (and many more!) establish and transform their brand.

Jono earned his Ph.D. in Design from the University of California, Berkeley. When Jono isn’t revolutionizing the way we consider design, he shares one sketch a week on his website sketchplanations.com.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

Jono Hey shares his love for illustrations and recalls the birth of Sketchplanations, where he posts one drawing per week to explain a concept or idea.
What happens to your work when you post on social media consistently?
Jono shares his weekly process for creating sketches and his beneficial feedback loop for improvement.
Analyzing the tension between what you do and your reason why.
How do you improve your skill with intentional progress?
External and internal feedback loops, and how you can create something better for yourself.
Jono shares his thoughts on the power of visual communication and the evolution of explaining complex ideas online.
How can you find your creative style?
Jono shares his book recommendations and who inspires him as a designer.
Jono reveals why he structures his creative process into three stages.
Jono’s advice on writing and drawing with a purpose.
Where to learn more about Jono Hey.

In this episode…

What daily or weekly habits have you kept up with for years? This could be anything: journaling, afternoon napping, listening to music while you make your daily schedule. Jono Hey, Chief Product Officer at Zen Educate, has created one sketch every week for seven years to deconstruct abstract scenarios into simple ideas—and sharpen his user experience skills.

Jono Hey uses his eye for user experience (UX) design and creating stellar product management processes to take abstract ideas and simplify them into weekly sketches. Over the last seven years, he has fine-tuned his approach for creating an idea feedback loop and redefining the bounds of what it means to be creative.

In this week’s episode of The Michael Simmons Show, host Michael Simmons sits down with Jono Hey, Chief Product Officer at Zen Educate. They discuss what it means to be a creator and how to create a positive internal and external feedback loop for constructive work from ideation to application. Jono talks about his process for creating sketches and staying consistent when considering quality over quantity. He also shares his thoughts on the power of visual communication and its evolution online.

Resources Mentioned in this episode

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by my company, Seminal.

We help you create blockbuster content that rises above the noise, changes the world, and builds your business.

To learn about creating blockbuster content, read my article: Blockbuster: The #1 Mental Model For Writers Who Want To Create High-Quality, Viral Content

Episode Transcript

Intro 0:02

Welcome to The Michael Simmons Show where we help you create blockbuster content that changes the world and builds your business. We dive deep into the habits and hacks of today’s top thought leaders. Now, here’s the show.

Michael Simmons 0:14

Today, we have another awesome guest, his name is Jono Hey, he has a site called Sketchplanations, where once a week, he takes a complicated idea, often a mental model and turns it into a visual. I have shared literally dozens of his images in the different Facebook groups, I’ve embedded in the content that we have. And it’s always on the best performing content. And I always admire people who take a complex idea, turn it into a visual or with a little bit of text, and make it something that people would understand and something that’s viral. And that’s what Jono has really done well. And so in this interview, we really break down his whole process for his routine throughout the week, and his advice on how you too can create visuals just like he does. I think you’ll really enjoy it. Welcome to the podcast. Jono.

Jono Hey 1:11

Thanks. Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.

Michael Simmons 1:14

We’ve spoken one once before, but I’ve long been an admirer of your work and shared it a lot across our channels and people that follow us really appreciate it as well. So I’m excited to dive in and just learn more about your story and how you think about visuals and communicating complex ideas through them. Yeah, super. And so from I understand you got a PhD in design, you’re focused on user experience product. But in 2012, just about eight years ago, you made the decision to do one sketch per day. What caused you besides just getting the sketchbook that had the space for one sketch per day? What made you want to do that experiment?

Jono Hey 1:58

Yeah, I guess it came, I guess it came from two things. Fundamentally, one was that, yeah, I was given a thing to do a drawing a day. And I did that for a year, just just personal things. And it was just nice. It’s just nice to have something to keep you focused each day and just to work on something. And I got to the end of that. And I just felt like it was going to be a bit of a shame to stop.

Michael Simmons 2:23

Did you have any experience doing illustration before that? I know you’re experiencing design, but about drawing illustration.

Jono Hey 2:30

Yeah, to some degree, I’ve I think I’ve always been a visual person. I remember being back at school, I was always I was always good at the science and the math side of things. But the bit I enjoyed the most was always the the drawing over members, memories of drawing while I’m on holidays, and and I remember, I remember having a really lovely poster on my wall, it was actually like an airbrushed Lamborghini, I think but it had this cutaway motor. And I remember it was so impressive how they done all the components of the motor as well as it’s been a beautiful drawing. So I’ve done some drawing before, but it was always drawn in service of something, you know, which is why I went the sort of product design route. But then I got to the end of these these sketches for the for the year. And I was going to like what I want to still be doing doing something useful. And I thought that, you know, my job as a, as a designer, was always about communicating and explaining what’s going on to people. So could I practice that at the same time? And so I said, Okay, well, I’ll try and explain something with a sketch. And and so, yeah, so instead of just the straight drawing, I was like, let’s let’s do something where I get some get some more value out of it, and just a pretty picture.

Michael Simmons 3:43

And so that was the birth of Sketchplanations.

Jono Hey 3:47

That was it. That was it. And it was very much a personal project at the beginning. You know, I was only doing it for myself. And then I started sort of posting them on Facebook and somebody, some point somebody said, you know, you should you should put these online somewhere. So I started doing that. And here I am,

Michael Simmons 4:02

you’re enjoying one post, but were you doing one post verse Sketchplanations per day, and you kept it up for a year or two as well.

Jono Hey 4:09

So I did I did it a year of doing one a day, which is quite intense. And how

Michael Simmons 4:17

many hours? How long did it take you to do one sketch? You have to find the idea? brainstorming?

Jono Hey 4:23

Yeah, it really varies. I used to strain I used to try and set it down and so that I could do them in a lunchtime. And I managed to get a bit ahead, which was nice. And so some days if if you had a busy day, you know, I had I had one that I’d done when I’d done three in a day, at a weekend sometime. Typically. Sometimes you just have sometimes you just see a really clear way to just do something or a nice, nice format for something and you just sit down and 25 minutes I go Okay, brilliant. I’ve done it other times. I’m like, is that really is that really how it works? I have to go do my research or read some article. I try a few different things, then. Then there’s maybe take me several hours, even if they look really small at the end and simple, just

Michael Simmons 5:07

so the main bottleneck wasn’t actually the drawing. It’s really the ideation of how you capture the essence of this idea.

Jono Hey 5:14

Yeah, and then offer an idea. Experiment with a few different like variations first, before I put my pen to paper.

Michael Simmons 5:22

And you want to hear I have and then you switch Well, before I even go into that. So you did that for a while, then as a parent, you have a job on the side, you went to once a week, make it more manageable. And you’ve been doing that for five years or so.

Jono Hey 5:39

Yeah, maybe a bit more. Maybe every six, six years, I think. I actually went to two a week. I was like, okay, like, if I can do one a day, clearly, I could do two a week. And I found this interesting thing that two a week is just like too vague. You know, you’re like, you can always do one tomorrow. Tomorrow, and actually, I was much worse at hitting two week than I when I said like, hey, like if I just do one a week. So really clear and simple target and I stuck with that. So that’s Yeah, that’s worked. You can always say, Hey,

Michael Simmons 6:09

I haven’t done one for this week. Let me do one right now. And it just feels manageable. To do.

Jono Hey 6:14

Yeah, where’s where’s two is ambiguous. Well, I can do it on Tuesday. But I could also do it on Wednesday, I’d say what Seth Godin has the thing about the power of one a day. And I think that’s true, just doing one thing a day, just as a really clear target. But if you’re not doing that, Oh, that’s too much. one a week is much better than two week. Yeah, experience.

Michael Simmons 6:35

One thing I’ve been processing and just trying to think about what it means is this idea of one a day. So the first person I interviewed was Nicolas Cole. And he started off on Quora just answering one question per day, 2014 ish. Now his content has been seen by over 100 million people. And she’s gotten to that like hardcore rhythm of just producing one per day. And it is kind of crazy that if you keep that up, it’s super intense harder when you have children, that somebody doing one of those per day versus one per week. You know, it’s not only 7x the output, but it might be 15x, the momentum of just how things are scrunched up, you might hit that elbow of the exponential curve faster or something like that. What are your thoughts on just sheer output and whether going from one to a day, the seven a day shifted thing?

Jono Hey 7:32

Um, yeah, it’s interesting, I certainly just the volume makes you improve. Although I have to say the, if you’re trying to produce a really quality output in some ways, everybody is better off than I’m doing one a week than one a day. Now they depend depends how much time you can make, you know, making your day in order to do this stuff. And I’m sure if I could spend the morning each day, I would do a really good one each day. But actually, I think there’d be so many times I’d be like, I just need to get one done this day, that it would be mediocre compared to when I’ve actually had a few days to sort of ruminate on it during the week, right? Probably the the output as a result is better. But I mean, yeah, definitely remember, I remember really interesting speech by Arnold Schwarzenegger. And he was like, you know, what, if you just spend one hour a day trying to learn something, you know, every year, you’ll you’ll be almost an expert, you’ve done 360 hours of it. So there really is there is something to like finding that one a day goal. And there’s something so simple about you just once you’ve once you’ve settled in, you’ve committed to it. You don’t have to think you just have to do it. You know,

Michael Simmons 8:43

do you spend more time per post Now, you mentioned kind of your ruminating on it? Is it? Is that informal during the week? Or would you say your that has helped you to it has one post per day been just as effective for you as seven posts because you’re spending more time per post? You’re letting it ruminate, and it’s higher quality.

Jono Hey 9:03

Yeah, I think they’re better I think I tackle a tackle slightly harder things. I do them in a, in a, I execute them, the better. And and I do my I do more research beforehand. I’ve realized you know, if you’re just doing a picture of yourself, it doesn’t matter. Actually, whether or not it’s right or wrong. If you’re going to send something out to 10s of 1000s of people, you better do your homework first.

Michael Simmons 9:29

Right, right.

Jono Hey 9:30

Yeah. So even if even if they think something is is this way, or I think this is this theory or this model, you need to go do your research before you, you know, spread spread false content, you know, so, so yeah, I think I think it’s better and actually I did notice that when I’m organized enough if I if I do some early variations, I actually have like a little sort of circle of people that I’ll send a couple of options to and say, hey, did this make sense to you? And actually, that always makes sense. Better. Interesting.

Michael Simmons 10:01

So can you tell me a little bit more about your weekly process to you? What is it the steps that go into making a sketch? And then I love how you explain the feedback loop there with multiple people? What are the steps like that, that go into an output?

Jono Hey 10:16

Question. So first off, I think I have it’s the idea. I suppose I might have been trained over the last near nearly a decade, just to keep an eye out all the time for things that would be interesting to explain, or something that I find is interesting. That could benefit with being shared. So I have a huge list of potential topics. So sometimes Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

Michael Simmons 10:40

What makes it what makes something interesting? I know you have the tastes now it’s by a lot unconscious. But what jumps out to you?

Jono Hey 10:49

Yeah, it’s an intriguing thing. I think that one thing I found is I can’t always tell what people will find interesting. So my, my goal, and I remember, somebody was like, I use Pull, pull your readers and find out what they’re interested in and just do that. And then I was like, well, this is not a job. And this is something I want to do for my interests. So I should do things that I find interesting. But I don’t know, I think the things that I think the things that work best, or most interesting, in a way are the ones where there’s kind of a model, or some theory, which is the sort of thing you might be reading like Thinking Fast and Slow by Dan Kahneman. And there’s a chapter on this thing, and there’s some paragraphs and, and you read all that, and you just kind of gently absorb this idea. But it’s easy to forget, and it doesn’t stick. And so to take some some concept like that, like Prospect Theory, or whatever, whatever they are, and just go, you know, can I make this? Can I boil this down into a sketch that those, those are the ones that are a bit more interesting. But sometimes I think things that just have a, you know, have a nice visual aspect to them. Did a kind of dumb one, and you know, this, like, what’s the fruit? What’s the vegetable? And you know, it’s tomato, fruit? And

Michael Simmons 12:11

yeah, sometimes the border ones that are hard to?

Jono Hey 12:14

Yeah. And so, you know, I was trying to just get clear on this for myself. And I was like, You know what, I should just just try and sketch this out. And so, so I made that my sketch this week, and just something where I find myself, you know, noodling on what’s, what’s the real answer here?

Michael Simmons 12:30

Well, one thing that I think it’s interesting that I heard you address a little bit is there’s a tension between why we do it, is it for ourselves, you know, of just learning, or we want to obviously have things that are for ourselves, but also resonate with other people. My personal belief is that soul market fit that doing for ourselves is the most important part, because that’s what keeps you going, or that’s one of the core things that keeps you going. So if you’re on a topic that you’re just bored by or not excited to share, you’re just not going to be as good or convincing, authentic, have as much runway. But of course, if you don’t get any traction or things like that, it’s easy to Alright, why am I even doing this? How do you think about the tension between those two? And do you have any counterintuitive approaches have a unique way of doing it? You think?

Jono Hey 13:24

Yeah, it’s good. It’s a good question. So I definitely think there’s a tension there. Because I think like there is some satisfaction in doing something which has value to other people. So it’s important to pay attention to, you know, if nobody’s doing it, I might as well just be doing these sketches and hanging them in my garage. Right, right. And then, and then you go, Okay, well, I it enriches my life, that’s fine. But but maybe I could, I could have a wider impact. But that said, I definitely feel like like you like, it’s not a sort of job, I’m not being paid to do this. So I think it really is important that they’re there things that I think are interesting. And also I have learned a bit, I think to trust to trust my instincts in the sense that to me, like you know, you people don’t necessarily the whole like, if you ask people what they wanted there to set a faster horse kind of thing, you know, right once until you see it and so, in some ways, if I get if I feel confident that something could be worth explaining, or it’s gonna be good, you know what, I should give that a go because even if somebody would ask me for it, maybe they will when they see it, they will.

Michael Simmons 14:42

And also had anybody asked you to do a sketch on the vegetable versus a fruit yet.

Jono Hey 14:47

Nobody asked me that one. Although I did, I think I did receive a response if somebody can explain berries. Berries are immensely complicated

Michael Simmons 14:58

There you go.

Jono Hey 15:00

But yeah, I think I think you have to be interested in it to, to want to put the effort in, and to do a really good job, like you have to be, like, be passionate about it. So yeah, so I think there’s maybe a bit of a balance, but I decided with Sketchplanations, I would, I would trust my own instincts and go, you know, I want to, I want to draw stuff that I find interesting. And I hope that that’s interesting to others.

Michael Simmons 15:24

And when I think about improving at a skill, in my mind, I break it down to two fundamental components. Number one is the number of repetitions, and just the doing over and over. And then number two is improvement. And a lot of times people fail because they don’t do any repetitions. So they just give up stop doing it. Or they’re doing it over and over, but they’re not improving at all. And so, sometimes the improvement can just happen on its own, but sometimes getting outside feedback. And so what have you created in place to make sure that you improve over these seven years? Well, I guess what do you feel like you have improved and what things have made you improve? You mentioned, you get feet you send out for feedback to people? Yeah, things like that.

Jono Hey 16:12

Yeah, is a good question. I have noticed, and I don’t know if you know, if you if you post things online, I have noticed you get very different degrees of feedback, depending on the medium that you post stuff. So if you post something on Twitter, you get likes, and so you go, okay, lots of people like this one. So maybe that was a good one. But if you if you send something out by email, you might get even no responses, one, but then you might get one response, which is this big, long, thoughtful message about how something touched them, you know, or how this was relevant for them. And, and so I think there’s, there’s something about like you, you don’t necessarily get great feedback, or you get very different types of feedback, depending on how you share things. I think, for me, probably, you know, when you when you’re posting these things, they’re out there publicly, forever, and I see them, I come back to them, and you put you put something out, and you make a mistake, and you’re like, I wish I hadn’t made that mistake. And so, you know, when I look back, I can see which ones I think have really worked and see which ones I think really didn’t. I sort of, I feel like you bear that in mind all the time in the in the subsequent ones that you’re doing. And so

Michael Simmons 17:34

analyzing the winners and losers, do you do that? Based off? When you say didn’t work? Or work? Do you mean that you’re looking at the likes, the comments the external? Or do you mean, internal, you look at it, you’re just like, I don’t really get this one. And I would have done this.

Jono Hey 17:47

Yeah, that is actually I mean, it’s there is that external feedback, but there’s also just my my viewpoint on it. So you know, I ones where I look back and go, I did a really good job, there are ones I look back and go, you know, I could have done better. I remember, just to give one example. We take a lot of photographs before we had kids. And so we would go on a trip for a weekend and we come back and we and we’d have all our photographs, and we do some sorting. And we used to be the point where like harddrive space mattered. So used to delete some. And I just remember that process of sifting through all your photographs and saying, Is this a good one? This one and you got three similar photographs. And you go well, what’s better about this one than that one? And that process of just continually looking at things again? This one’s better. Why is that one better? Oh, it’s because of that. And so I think I think I kind of get that when when you accumulate this big body of work, you can sort of look back at them and go, these ones were really good. That one, not so much.

Michael Simmons 18:44

Yeah, it’s interesting, the comparison between internal and external feedback loops, and how that drives our decision. So let’s say there’s externally how you measure your success and what what you do. And then externally, you can measure by likes and feedbacks. And then internally, there’s that soul market fit as a motivation source, and then as a feedback, loop your own taste. And one thing I think about interesting about taste, is that there’s studies done for people with deliberate practice. And experts could identify like 10 times more mistakes than novices. Though, let’s say it’s a musical instrument, they could listen to an old performance they did. And an expert could be able to notice the errors and therefore self correct better, versus a novice couldn’t. And so it sounds like there’s a way that you build up your tastes somehow developed over time, such that when you reflect on it, you could see how it’s better. Do you feel like the effect of being able to give your own feedback loop is just the separation of time and some you have a fresh perspective? Or it’s about taste, and if so, how did you develop that taste to be able to self correct better?

Jono Hey 20:00

Yeah, I think maybe maybe another key aspect of the learning process and doing these is, is actually as I’m doing them. So it’s actually also interesting with the mediums I used to do them all. pen and paper, like I was, I would carry these one these beautiful little moleskine notebooks around and fill them out with pens. lovely little. Oh, those are nice. Yeah. And so they’re actually like, lovely, lovely little artifacts to look at.

Michael Simmons 20:26

Wow, that looks like it’s really? I mean, it looks really good. Like you almost like, Yeah, I don’t know, it’s on a sticker or something.

Jono Hey 20:35

Yes, exactly. So that was that was a good challenge, but I switched to doing it digitally. And one thing you get with digitally, you know, obviously, is you can you can undo, you can erase, you can take a layer, you can sometimes copy it, you can, you know, I can do different versions of it. And this is also like the process of during doing a sketch through the week is led, let’s say I do a version of it on Tuesday. And then two days later, I look back at it again. I’m like I you know what, it’s not really as clear as I thought it was at the time. Maybe I should bring me I should change the colors of these. Maybe it needs to be all on the left, maybe you know. And I think that that iterative process on each, each sketch itself, I definitely learned some principles of making stuff better, which I’m then applying to the next ones every time.

Michael Simmons 21:19

So that so how many how many loops? Would you say you do on your own iterations?

Jono Hey 21:26

Yeah, it depends quite a lot. As I said, Sometimes I would, I would just have a really clear idea in my head and just go do it. Other times, I’ve probably done eight to ten variations where I’ve like, done this, and then I’ve been like, no, that’s not right, I’ve done that. And then I could have tighten up that language, and then I change it again. So I learned that, you know, sometimes I’ll end up with quite a lot. But normally, normally, it’s probably like three or four.

Michael Simmons 21:55

And, you know, one thing I think about is Edward de Bono has six hats, you know, different perspectives that you could have on your own work to create a better feedback loop. And so I think about wearing different hats when I go into reviewing my own work. So let’s say I’m reviewing an article, and I’m reviewing for comprehensiveness, I’ll notice things to improve differently than if I’m reviewing it for conciseness. We’re at that point, I’ll just take out words and noticing different things for you. Are you mainly just going back to each one and just going with a gut feel of this looks good? That doesn’t matter? Here’s what’s off? Or do you have a lens that you’re looking back on it with?

Jono Hey 22:35

Yeah, that’s it. That’s a really good point. I’ve never I’ve never like consciously sat and done like a different hat review of sketches. But But I think there are different different things that sometimes. Sometimes you might just look at it, and like, you know, even if you’d like blur your eyes, or just remember what you did you go like did it did it have like visual impact, as a sketch or like a really sort of broad brush sort of thing. Other times you might be going in and going, you know what, this this? These, these words are too long? Can I shorten this by half the time just like, you know, layout, does it? If you’re following through a drawing? Is it clear where I’m expecting you to go? next process? This is a little story. And so I think there are there are like different things that I’m checking in that in those reviews. Yeah, thinking hats. probably try that.

Michael Simmons 23:29

Are there any, those are great, to kind of widen the visual impact. And you can kind of see that by blurring your eyes, that maybe it’s one of the finer details go away, and you just see the visual conciseness. And the sequence of it. Anything else that you look for in your own images? Or patterns? And

Jono Hey 23:48

yeah, maybe one? It’s not It’s not for every sketch, but some of them at I think maybe you have I say did it did it like grabbed me emotionally in a way? Like obviously that doesn’t, that doesn’t apply to everything. But somewhere I’ve got like a story or a scenario or a character saying something? I think there’s a like a, you know, did you did you capture the emotion of that moment? Is there going to, they’re going to stick with you give an example. I did one recently about hope. And there’s a nice model for hope, which I’ve never really thought about before. Whereas is like, you’re more likely to be hopeful if you have clear goals, if you can see pathways to get to those goals. And if you have the willpower and belief that you can do it

Michael Simmons 24:35

I like that.

Jono Hey 24:36

Yeah. And so this is just the sort of thing I think we should finish actually made a really good sketch because you read this in a book and it’s you know, it’s a page or two of text. Just doesn’t, you may might stick with you, but but actually just capturing that in one little sketch in a way that you could share really quickly. It was much better, but I had I had this sort of abstract picture of like a gentle hill with a goal at the top and a character and a line towards it. And I just like it just didn’t, just didn’t grab me. And I remember, I changed in the next iteration to a pitch at this amazing picture of a mountain in in Pakistan from a climber I like, which is just this really super impressive picture. And you just imagine this guy with the backpack on trying to get to the top of that peak, and in some ways that just grabbed me much more emotionally. So that I think that’s one of the things that Yeah, I’m also it’s kind of kind of checking for like, Can you relate to this?

Michael Simmons 25:32

Interesting, can you relate? Well, you know that the emotion is one thing, but then when you say, Can you relate to that? Like, can you you’re thinking about that, too? Can the reader see themselves? They’re like, Oh, yeah, I can relate. That makes sense. So

Jono Hey 25:47

yeah, in many scenarios, I mean, it totally depends what I’m sketching. Here is like, you know, how to tell if an egg is off? I don’t know if you ever relate to that, you know, it’s totally different. But in some cases, how to tell if an egg is still fresh. Oh, interesting. Yeah,

Michael Simmons 26:05

I haven’t really well, I guess I look at the crack. But I would be interested in you

Jono Hey 26:10

had something on that deal on afterwards.

Michael Simmons 26:14

And so when you’re sending for feedback, you just send it to people and say, Hey, what do you think about this? Or do you have a specific survey? You have them fill out a question that you find is really helpful.

Jono Hey 26:24

I mean, I mean, it’s all entirely voluntary for people to send feedback. So I’m always mindful not to, not to ask too much. But I guess, I guess one thing I’ve learned, and this is, partly from being a designer, is that I like to keep things open ended. Because, you know, sometimes the feedback you need is like, I just don’t get this at all. Right, right. Rather than, you know, that writing is a bit too small. I’d much rather they told me they just didn’t get it at all. And so I tried to keep stuff pretty broad. And the other way I think you get better feedback is if you give two options, two or more even. And that way, it sort of reduces the feeling of like, I have to tell this guy, I just don’t really like it. They can just say I’d much prefer the other one,

Michael Simmons 27:10

you know, two options for work. Which one do you like? More? Oh, interesting.

Jono Hey 27:12

Exactly. And then you also learn what about one version was actually good? Is that they say this one jumps out at me much more, I don’t know. And then you go, Yeah, you’re right. That that is that is better. So so so that’s, that’s what I’ve learned when I gathering feedback is I try where possible to always send to different variations. Even if I’ve got a favorite. I try and go, Well, you know, what, can I just can I just think of some other way that this could be done. And just put it out there just as a as a check. I’m on the right track.

Michael Simmons 27:42

Yeah, I like that. And also, I, that’s a really good point about big picture versus little picture that I think somebody says as a comma here, it’s helpful, but you got a comma on visual, that’s just not good. It’s, that’s not helping that much, versus if they really help you save your time, or that could be really good. Exactly. And then

Jono Hey 28:01

that, that sort of big picture feedback is sometimes quite hard to get. And maybe you need to either like to be really separated from that person. So they just didn’t care about your feelings or where or they need to, like be just, you know, have a good relationship with them and be really honest.

Michael Simmons 28:17

I feel like in the past few years, communicating ideas visually of abstract ideas has become more popular. First time I really saw it was Wait, but Why with Tim Urban and doing that, like, wow, this is really cool. And it helps me understand a better at your work and Amber Ray. I’ve also one person, Jessica Hagy. She has an indexing artist, you know, her work?

Jono Hey 28:41

I have come across Jessica No, I haven’t looked for a while. But yeah,

Michael Simmons 28:44

Jack Butcher with Visualize Value. So it feels like there’s I’m noticing more people doing this. What are your thoughts on where the power of visual communication and how you see it evolving online with complex ideas? Yeah, I

Jono Hey 29:00

mean, yeah, mine’s this kind of sort of random story to get into this. But I definitely think that I see that there are a lot of people out there producing some really great stuff. And I think, I think a lot of it is the medium that things are shared in, you know, sometimes you want to, you know, sit down and read a long article, and really get into something and sometimes, you know, you have formats like Instagram and Twitter where just like, something you throw up quickly, just to just to get the message across something that’s easily shareable something that sticks with you, even if there’s a link to go read more helps.

Jono Hey 29:42

Yeah, I always, I always remember for me, I took some education courses at university and the format of the classes was generally that you go do the reading and you come and sit around a table and then you discuss the questions and for me, it was always this sort of I don’t know stream of words in the air. And at the end of it, you’re like, I think I think I changed my understanding through that, but I don’t have anything concrete or tangible to, to hang my ideas off. And I think whenever you get that sort of clarity by turning something, which is a bit more abstract into something visual, just helps ideas stick and I think, yeah, I couldn’t say exactly why there seems to be more of it right now. But be you know, that perhaps it is actually, you know, just general things like the you know, the internet deals with images much better. Now, the tools we’re producing them, I are genuinely much better, like, I can actually do a digital one on on an iPad with the pencil, and it’s pretty good. And it didn’t used to be, you know, yeah. Yeah.

Michael Simmons 30:43

So the main tool that you use right now is Apple Pencil and an iPad. And you first you started with more, doing it non digitally, but now, digitally, is the way to go, do you feel for someone just starting off with wanting to get the illustrations?

Jono Hey 30:59

I wouldn’t say that there is it is the way to go. necessarily, I think there was just something lovely about having a small notebook and a couple of really nice pens, that’s really satisfying. And if you’re just getting started, that’s plenty good enough. And, you know, I’ve got a whiteboard and a whiteboard pen, that’s, that’s good in outside to feel like, you know, a lot of the a lot of the sketches that I do a simple, you know, there’s like a black, maybe there’s a red, and there’s a line drawing, it doesn’t it doesn’t have to be fancy or complicated. So I don’t think you need any, any fancy tools to get started. And in fact, in fact, sometimes I think like the technology, or you have to learn it, and it will be a little barrier to getting going. So I I probably say the nicest thing is take a little sketchbook and a couple of pens, something that fits in your pocket and your bag, and you can always have

Michael Simmons 31:51

practice. Yeah, I like that. And you’re one thing I’ve noticed, too, is that a lot of designers that I followed, like the ones that I mentioned, they get a style, and then they stay with it. The you know, with you, all of your ones at the same yellow background, uses maybe three colors, like say, green, orange, slash red or blue one very rarely. And it’s handwriting style. And Jessica Hagy’s, all of hers are, she actually uses like a marker of black and white on an index card, then she scans it in. So for me, I’ve never found I’ve used different tools and very beginner, but I always find it hard to commit to one thing. You feel like finding your thing is more of an iterative thing that don’t try to look for in the beginning. It’ll just find you and then you’ll just kind of do it naturally. Or would you encourage people to figure that out sooner to make it simpler for them?

Jono Hey 32:49

Yeah, no, I think I think it’s unless you’re about to turn into a business straightaway. I would. I’d say it’s a very, like evolving thing. And I’d let it just evolve. Yeah, like def definitely I feel like I’ve I’ve got a style that I’ve decided to stick with. Um,

Michael Simmons 33:08

How long did it take you to find that?

Jono Hey 33:11

Yeah, it’s funny. It’s funny to look back at the early ones. And they’re they’re much more scattered and more varied. Sometimes still quite nice. To price is probably like a year or so. Before I was I was sticking to like a

Michael Simmons 33:23

store like 100,000 images, then. Yeah, that

Jono Hey 33:26

isn’t that is hundreds. Yeah.

Michael Simmons 33:28

Yeah.

Jono Hey 33:30

But you know, like, the sort of yellow background just comes from the paper notebook that I was scanning. Oh, interesting.

Michael Simmons 33:37

That’s funny. I was kind of happenstance.

Jono Hey 33:40

Yeah, yeah. But actually, if you if you look at it, as a collection, they become quite distinctive that way. And I think it means that you can look at one and go, I know that this is a sketch pronation, I know what’s expected. And I also think, like you say about the different tools that Jessica might use, there’s something about having a limited set of means that you’re going to do it, that that helps, you know, it’s sort of constraints, your problem space, you put a few constraints, I’m going to use black and red, and nothing, nothing too fancy, and it’s just going to be a sketch thing. And sometimes that helps the ideas crystalize a bit more, you know, when you apply a few constraints, I think,

Michael Simmons 34:24

and you obviously, coming from a design world, you know, somebody like me or other people here, let’s just assume that people are not coming from a design world. And granted, you know, the work you’re doing, you’re not showing off all your design skills, you are keeping it simple. are same thing with Jessica Hagy, or Jack Butcher, or even Wait, but Why. But are there any books that you’d recommend that are really helpful or resources just to get some of the basics that one might be missing? If they’ve never had a course?

Jono Hey 34:53

Yeah, yeah, there are a couple actually. I mean, one of the classic ones was was Dan Roam’s Back of the Napkin. And I always remember like in that he says, you know, like, if you can draw squares, circles and lines, then you can draw enough to make, you know, decent drawings, useful, useful drawings. What what I like the other thing a lot of people probably don’t know, there’s a book called Rapid Viz. I’ve got it. Got it here by Kurt Hanks and Larry Belliston is quite old. And it’s really, really nice, obviously, that they are accomplished artists, I think they’re maybe they did a lot of architecture style drawings. I love architectural style drawings. But the you know, the purpose of it is to help you communicate with a drawing, which is I think what architects are trying to do rather than produce a pretty drawing is just to communicate something. And so they go through a lot of drawing techniques. But in the service of just getting your ideas across quickly, I think that’s a really nice one that I think a lot of people probably haven’t come across.

Michael Simmons 35:56

Thank you check that one out. And when it comes down to the nitty gritty of let’s say, you’re, you know, you you have an idea and for you might be natural to be like, Oh, I could use a mountain because a mountain means the journey. Or I could use these characters saying thought bubbles, is there a way that you break it down? Further, that you have a list of metaphors that you use? Or images that are like the your alphabet in a way?

Jono Hey 36:22

Yeah, yeah, good. Good question. I think it’s, I think it’s true that I do keep a note, I think it really helps to have a number of different sort of models in mind that you can draw on somebody, sometimes somebody has done all the work for you, right? Like if you’re doing Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, like it’s been drawn as a pyramid. And you know, the pyramid probably helps it sort of stick.

Michael Simmons 36:46

Right? Although you’re Simon Sinek Golden Circle one already has that.

Jono Hey 36:51

Yeah, exactly. So I’m not I’m not reinventing it. I’m just sort of sharing sharing one there. But you know, if you if you keep a number of models, like you know, what you see out there, like Venn diagrams, or charts or tables, sometimes it might be like, Oh, you want to do a before and after? Or you want to compare on a number of attributes? The ladders, pyramids, sometimes it’s nice just to be literal, I don’t know. That’s an old sketch. It was knowing your Bactrian from your dromedary camels. And this is a really nice little way of doing it. You know, Bactrian camel is the one with two humps, which is like a B on its side. dromedaries, a D was just the one hump, you know. And so you’ve got like a really visual

Michael Simmons 37:31

Ray, right? Yeah.

Jono Hey 37:34

But I think Yeah, so I do, I do keep in mind when there’s an abstract sort of concept that I’m trying to explain, like a, you’ve got all those kind of models that you could lean on, like, you know, whether it’s a ladder or a hierarchy or something like that. And these things can help. And sometimes, as I say, it’s just like, you probably read the Made to Stick. Yeah. And yeah, just the things that tap into an emotion or a story or some surprising situation. I think sometimes if you if you pick the right, I think what led you recently, one around the RACI, responsibility, accountability, consulted and informed. And I did I came up with this idea of scenario, you’re at the beach and you’re building a sea sandcastle. I wanted to take take this, like really sort of slightly boring Business Management idea. Put it somewhere really concrete. Where the kid is, kid is the one responsible for building the sandcastle on, the dad’s gonna make sure it’s staying up and the mums reading a book and saying, how’s it going on? You know, and I feel like, there’s another one where you’re just trying to trying to find the right scenario. And there’s lots of different scenarios you could do. But I do find sometimes if I stay too abstract, they just don’t, they just don’t resonate. They’re just not interesting.

Michael Simmons 38:49

So putting it with characters and having some sort of interaction with them, to make it more relatable,

Jono Hey 38:56

I think so. So I try. And the feedback I often get when I ask, ask for feedback is for examples. And interesting. The challenge is often, you know, if you’re going to do like a SWOT analysis or something, it’s one thing to like, just write out, here are the things you should look for. But if you’ve, if you find a good example, to use that on A it makes it visual and B, it makes it stick and C it makes it like interesting as a as a drawing as well. So I just spent some time there thinking actually, what would be a better example of this?

Michael Simmons 39:30

Yeah, I like your cost of being late one of just, it’s very simple. But the person walking through the door, there’s a 10 over them for 10 minutes late. But then there’s a whole table of people sitting there and there’s tons of tents around there, just for whatever clicks in your mind a different way of just how down or you know, make the normally would they go, I’m just late, that’s fine. They just really see the cost of it.

Jono Hey 39:55

Yeah, I think in that sort of scenario, you’re going what it’s an invisible All Costs normally, because you don’t see this time that there’s been wasted. And so visually, you need to make the one person who thinks it’s just 10 minutes. And then a whole other thing, which is now big, because you’ve written 10 all these times, and says this big thing were you suddenly made that was sort of intangible and invisible and abstract you made of now comparable, you know, a big thing versus a small thing. I don’t wanna say that’s the best the best example. But I think that’s, that’s where the visual helps, right? Because you suddenly go, Oh, I see it. Where around a table in a meeting, you didn’t see that 10 minutes of waste of everybody’s time now.

Michael Simmons 40:37

And you mentioned a few visual types, which I kind of think as an alphabet. You mentioned Venn diagram before and after. And even in there. What you just mentioned the cost of being late it really, I didn’t see it. But now when you explained it, I thought it’s kind of has a comparison. Not before and after, or side by side. I feel like those do really well. I’ve noticed that pyramid, ladder, mountain, are there ones that you feel like are the 8020? Here have most ideas? For example, Jessica Hagy, all of hers, almost all of them are Venn diagrams, and then a line, you know, dot chart.

Jono Hey 41:22

Yeah, I guess I don’t tend to do a lot of Venn diagrams. And I think part of that is that unless you unless you really grab people with like, what these topics are, it stays kind of this abstract thing. And it’s also not terribly interesting for me to draw in how to develop my skills doing it. I guess my 8020 would be it’s gonna sound really dumb, but just like a, like a 123, like a process you like, tell a little story in, in these in three in three scenarios, like you just you just walk people through it with like, three little separate images of three states. And then the other one is just like going, can you make it? Yeah, can you can you bring like an abstract concept into a sort of physical scenario, real world scenario, and just picture that scenario. And then, even if you don’t really quite remember the concept perfectly, you remember the scenario, and then it makes sense. It was done, I got to try and get give an example of from one a long way back, it was a really nice concept. I thought it was emotional hot potato. Which, which it’s not that so that’s a nice metaphor, it’s somebody else’s metaphor. And the idea is that, you know, like, dad’s at work, and he gets shouted out by the boss, and so he’s in a really bad mood. And then the dad shouts at his, his wife, because he’s pissed off, and then then the wife, like, gets angry at the kids. And then, and then eventually, kids get angry at the dog and kick the dog, and then the dog pees on the mat and runs out the door. And so, like, just just making that like a nice visual story, I think just makes it stick so much more so

Michael Simmons 43:12

interesting. And that kind of goes back to the visual, or the hidden costs of something, that you’re visualizing the thing that people wouldn’t normally see. You don’t realize on a day to day basis that how far your positive and negative emotions travel. You’re right. Yeah.

Jono Hey 43:27

And you see, you’re like, just you put it out visually, and you see it cascade down this thing? Yeah. Which, which otherwise, you don’t? Yeah. easy just to fade away. You don’t notice that show? You make it really tangible? visual. Yeah.

Michael Simmons 43:40

And you mentioned three stages, I would have thought that the 8020 would be two stages, just to keep it simple. Why three?

Jono Hey 43:51

Hmm, that’s a good question. I very often find that three is what I need.

Michael Simmons 44:01

Plays are often in three acts, you know? Yeah,

Jono Hey 44:05

I was gonna say like, if this is the sort of thesis, antithesis, synthesis, you know, like, you, you set up the status quo. Here’s the challenge to it. And here’s the resolution, I think maybe there’s maybe the three has that kind of element to it. You like, you’re starting from nowhere, whenever you’re looking at one of these sketches. So you have to set the scene, and then your sin is the problem. And then, is the solution. And they’re not they’re not all like that, by any means. But I feel like three comes up again and again. And maybe that’s why I have to think about that.

Michael Simmons 44:48

And I was just thinking about a random quote that I just done well, I that I got from a mentor 80% of communication is miscommunication. I don’t know if you’ve heard that before. A lot of times you think you’re talking about the same thing, because you’re using the same words, but you each attached very different meanings to it. So sometimes you could get, you know, you agree, you’re like, Oh, yeah, I agree, or somebody is nodding their head, because they don’t want to seem like they’re disagreeing, but they don’t really get what you’re saying, as you intended it. So okay, I’m thinking about. So for your, for your process, you start to think about a physical scenario of when did that when sometime that happened to you?

Jono Hey 45:29

Yeah, it’s trying to I’m trying to think about the miscommunication part. Because I, because I, I use a lot of words, in my sketches, that they’re often I mean, some of them are just like laying out words on a on a page. And I feel like isn’t

Michael Simmons 45:46

that surprising about your work to compared to other visual people? I feel like they really try to, they’re gonna try to minimize the number of words, and then you have a lot of words on yours.

Jono Hey 45:55

Yeah, yeah. Cuz I think it like words are so interesting, like you write you write a paragraph to try and explain something. And and you’re absolutely right. They can be interpreted in many different ways. And you think you’ve got the message across, but you haven’t necessarily. And so I think like, by combining the words and the visuals, I have like, these two chances to try and like, dial down on, this is what I mean by it. So you know, you take something quite abstract, like autonomy or two factor authentication, and you can explain it, but then you have a picture of it as well. And these two things go together. And now you’ve you’ve made it much clearer, and much less likely to be misunderstood. Do I do think, you know, when, when I talk about the feedback that I get, along with sketches, the main, the main thing I realized Is that something i thought was obvious and evident. And I’d assumed when I was doing this just clearly wasn’t. And so I think that that’s, that’s where the miscommunication is. So the more feedback I get along the way, the less likely I’m going to come out the end with too much miscommunication, I think,

Michael Simmons 47:06

is there a way I noticed putting you on the spot and you normally develop it? But for that one, is there a way you think about visualizing that one, it could be 80% of communication is miscommunication? Or what I think about a lot is the curse of knowledge that the expert has this idea that they it’s so obvious to them, you know, and then they explain it to someone else, then like isn’t this obvious? Like no idea what you just said?

Jono Hey 47:30

Yeah, no, that’s a really good idea. I just that was my thought process before that, like, I think it would be, it would be kind of interesting, wouldn’t it to think when you when you have like 8020, it’s interesting to have like a block of text, somebody saying something that has, it has a number of things to it, you know, at least 10 words to it, because then you’ve got like an eight and a two that you can sort of visualize like I don’t know, I can imagine some scenario where somebody is explaining something. And it seems, you know, saying, here’s what we’re going to do, and then somebody goes off and does something completely the opposite, because they’ve got completely the wrong end of the stick. And they decided to sit down and think, you know, what could you explain slightly ambiguously, that might also be an end up with a kind of funny outcome with somebody doing something.

Michael Simmons 48:17

Right, right

Jono Hey 48:18

I intended

Michael Simmons 48:20

to narrow we have to, you know, so far it sounds like two layers, like one scene, a person explaining it. And then the other scene, is the person doing something very different. Yes, you want? Yeah. Was that? And then? Okay, what would be, you could clearly see that, like a day to day example of that.

Jono Hey 48:36

Yeah, I would. This is the sort of thing I would ruminate on during the week, I probably, you know, come up with one on the spot, and then come up with a better one on Thursday.

Michael Simmons 48:44

Yeah, yeah. Do you do a deliberate rumination on it during the week? Or is it just more natural back in your mind, like, on your commute, or you’re riding a bike or taking a dog for a walk?

Jono Hey 48:56

Yeah, it’s it’s, I sometimes found that one of my one of the things that works for me as a process, when I’m trying to do things for a week is actually as as mentioned, I have this big list that I might be picking from, sometimes the best thing I can do on Monday, is just choose which one I want to do. And then I’ll make a new sketch, I’ll call it what it’s going to be. And then even if that’s as far as I go, that means that sort of gets my mind working on this looking at for ideas through the week. So it’s not, it’s not that I’ll sit down necessarily, until it’s time to do it and go, how am I going to do this, but I think, you know, once I’ve, once I’ve settled on what I’m going to do, there is like a little thought process in the back of my mind, which is like, by the end of this week, I need to figure this out. So what is a good way to do this? And you know, I like that and along and I’m thinking about it, but I do find like if if I haven’t settled on what I’m gonna do at the beginning of the week, then none of that process is working. And

Michael Simmons 49:52

it’s not gonna end by doing one sketch, you kind of get the ball rolling of like, even on this call, we kind of you Identify to lay out a way it could be, then there’s a stuck point. And then we that’d be where you pause, they do almost do that we try to lay it out, get it out at a basic level and then ruminate on the hard part.

Jono Hey 50:11

Yeah, and I might just even take five minutes just to do a really rubbish sketch of that. And sometimes I’ll just save it, put it on my phone, and then periodically take a look at it and go, is that working? Or is that not working? And that that process helps me get get to a better place as well? Yeah.

Michael Simmons 50:33

Yeah, this is awesome. There’s just so many different ways on multiple levels here. If there is one thing you wanted to share with people that have everything we said, is the most important for someone who mainly used to writing with words and wants to get into visuals. What’s the main thing you suggest for them?

Jono Hey 50:54

Yeah, I

Jono Hey 50:54

think it gets to be a little bit of a cliche, but I do. I do a lot of things like triathlon, for example. And I always find that swimming is the one that people don’t like. And I think that all they absolutely love it. But this woman is like, I cannot I just can’t swim. I can’t do triathlons, I can’t swim. And I think drawing is one of those things where people are like, yeah, I can write stuff I can I can talk to somebody, of course, but I just can’t draw. And I just think it is wrong. Like in order to communicate usefully visually. You don’t have to be good at drawing. And there’s no question like, obviously, the more you practice, if you buy a book like Rapid Viz, and you give it a go, and you do one a day for two years, you’re going to get good. But I think that the biggest obstacle is that people just don’t try in the first place like Dan Roam saying, if you can draw a circle, and you can draw some lines, you can do something, I would say maybe one thing I would say, is people drawing people is the biggest obstacle. People can draw boxes and squares and like draw a process chart or whatever. But actually, where people get immediately stuck is Oh, ha, she can’t draw people. So there are actually I did a sketch of like, here’s some different ways, really simple ways to draw people. I remember the learning one, which was you can draw star people, you literally draw a star like this, they point for a head, and the arms are two stars. And your legs are Yeah, it’s literally a star. And it just looks like a person and it looks good enough to get a message across. It’s a person. And I think I think just getting slightly comfortable with going, I’m not going to chicken out of drawing a person. I’m just gonna do it. Because I’ve got this easy way, just the star. I think that really, really helps. But the main thing I think is just to get going and not think that you can’t do it because you can’t draw because it doesn’t need to be fancy.

Michael Simmons 52:49

Yeah, awesome. Great advice. And where can people learn more about you and follow you online?

Jono Hey 52:57

Yeah, good question. So who said most of the stuff is all at sketchplanations.com. Now, it’s a little bit of a mouthful. And then I do I do post things on Twitter and Instagram, if people prefer to do there. Even Facebook, I should start doing on LinkedIn, probably because some of them will go there. But basically sketchplanations.com. I’ve also got a personal site, but it basically says, sooner or later, everything I know will be on sketch permissions. So that’s, that’s a better place to go. Yeah,

Michael Simmons 53:25

yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time, and just want to acknowledge you you’ve created when you think about it, when it comes to illustrating complex ideas around like mental models or ideas like that. You’ve you’ve done more and better sketches than probably anyone on that, I don’t think so it’s kind of an amazing thing for humanity. And, and I really mean that. And on ours, they’ve gotten tons of shares, and we’ve shared them. So hopefully, it’s helping people remember and learn new ideas faster.

Jono Hey 53:56

But that’s, that’s a remarkable thought. Thank you. And I have to say, like, actually having people you know, when you’ve got a platform and people are listening, it’s a it’s a great motivation to keep doing it and not having any intention to stop. Yeah, you know, my list. My List of ideas is long, and it gets bigger, more than one idea per week, so hopefully, I’ll be doing it for some time. Yeah. Thank you.

Michael Simmons 54:19

You’re welcome. All right. Bye, Jono.

Jono Hey 54:22

Michael, It’s been a pleasure.

Outro 54:24

Thanks for listening to The Michael Simmons Show. We’ll see you again next time and be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes. If you found value. In today’s episode, we would greatly appreciate a five star rating on your favorite podcast player

Focusing on Strategy, Mindset, and the Best Ways to Scale Your Business with Russ Ruffino

Jun 2, 2021 // by michaeld // Podcast // No Comments

Russ Ruffino is the Founder and CEO of Clients on Demand, a company that provides small business owners and entrepreneurs with the necessary tools to scale their potential. Through Clients on Demand, Russ helps people gain more leads, more cash flow, and more free time. Russ and his team have also helped coaches, business professionals, and thought leaders build six-figure monthly businesses from the ground up.

Russ has successfully scaled his business from 1.4 million dollars to over 10 million. As a creative thinker, visualizer, and self-starter, he has created a model for promoting online courses and transformational programs for other entrepreneurs.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

Russ Ruffino talks about Clients on Demand — and how the company is continuing to grow
How has the Clients on Demand business model changed over time?
The three elements for transformation: world-class strategy, strategic support, and mindset support
Russ describes his former job positions and the pivotal moment that led him to start his business
How to achieve your personal or professional goals (hint: you have to take risks)
Tips for balancing your evolving interests with your company’s services
Focusing on feedback, efficiency, and the best ideas for your company
What is Russ’ secret to constant success?
Tips on creating a future without limits
How to get in touch with Russ — and book a free call with Clients on Demand

In this episode…

Being an entrepreneur takes patience, determination, and the courage to operate outside of your comfort zone. However, all entrepreneurs and self-starters face moments of fear and failure. So, how do you push past the feelings of uncertainty to develop your business? What steps can you take to scale your business and consistently achieve your goals?

As a successful entrepreneur who has scaled his business to over 10 million dollars (with only 31 employees), Russ Ruffino knows exactly how to overcome the challenges of starting a company. According to Russ, growing your business is like a chess game: you take small, strategic steps to eventually craft a decisive win. By focusing on those small improvements, you’ll be able to evolve both personally and professionally while reaping the rewards of constant growth.

In this episode of The Michael Simmons Show, host Michael Simmons talks with Russ Ruffino, Founder and CEO of Clients on Demand, about the steps you can take to grow and scale your company. Russ discusses how to best serve your clients, tips for combining strategy and mindset to get results, and his secret to constant success. In addition to this, Russ shares how you can book a free call with Clients on Demand. Stay tuned!

Resources Mentioned in this episode

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by my company, Seminal.

We help you create blockbuster content that rises above the noise, changes the world, and builds your business.

To learn about creating blockbuster content, read my article: Blockbuster: The #1 Mental Model For Writers Who Want To Create High-Quality, Viral Content

Episode Transcript

Intro 0:02

Michael Simmons 0:15

Today, I present to you my friend, and also a former client, Russ Ruffino. So I first met Russ about five years ago, where he wants some help creating online content. At the time, he had 1.4 million or so right? yearly revenue, those successful business making over $100,000 a month. But he was talking about, I remember that he wants to scale it to $10 million. So to go from 1.4 to 10 million. And he had a lot of confidence. But I was like, okay, like, that’s a really big jump. Well, believe it or not, he hit that. And he’s even grown much bigger, since that. He’s an example of someone who’s number one, a really big thinker, and visualizer, but actually makes it happen. He’s figured out a model that for creating, promoting online courses, and also creating programs that are really transformational, that I think is going to be a model that many people are already modeling and using, and many more people will use it as well. using it for ourselves. And being learning from him is how we got the confidence to launch our full year transformational writing program. So I owe a lot to Russ. And without further ado, I give you Russ Ruffino, though, welcome to the podcast. Russ. Thanks, man. It’s great to be here. So excited to have you here. And just multiple levels. I think this field of thought leadership is really fascinating. And it’s growing tremendously quickly. And you’ve really built one of the premier thought leadership, coaching transformation companies in the world, how large, is Clients on Demand?

Russ Ruffino 2:12

So Clients on Demand is doing between one and $1.5 million a month in revenue. We have a 31 I want to save people on the team. Everyone is virtual. So the whole company, everybody, everybody works remotely. And yeah, so so we’re you know, we’re we’re on a nice growth trajectory, we’re growing. And it’s it’s been especially great this year, because you know, this is the year 2020. It’s a year that, you know, a lot of businesses really struggled but because our business is completely virtual. I think that the whole COVID pandemic really did not hit us nearly as hard as it hit so many other businesses. So we’re very blessed in that way.

Michael Simmons 2:52

If I can do math, or correctly around the $15 million range, and what’s your goal for next year, that

Russ Ruffino 2:59

our goal is to get to 100. I think next year, we can probably get to 50. Maybe maybe beyond that. We had a couple sort of bottlenecks, let’s say right, so we can get into that if we if we want to talk about scaling and stuff later. But there’s always these bottlenecks that are that are there that are keeping your business stuck at whatever level it’s at, whether you’re trying to get to $100,000 a year or a million dollars a year or $10 million a year, there’s certain roadblocks roadblocks, that you have got to sort of dissolve in order to in order to move things forward. So we just in the past, like couple months, were able to really identify what those were and solve them. And I’m kind of watching them dissolve right before my very eyes. So we’re really excited about what’s gonna happen next year.

Michael Simmons 3:41

That’s awesome. Yeah, you know, I had the opportunity to meet a lot of internet marketers very successful one. I feel like a lot of people who break through there in the million to 5 million and stuff get to the five to 10 million. There’s really very few that that get beyond that. Yeah. How many people because you how many people you know, who’ve reached beyond that to like five or six, maybe, like literally a handful? Yeah, in the world. And there’s maybe Agora Financial, who’s more at the highest than maybe revenue-wise, not necessarily impact wise. But you’ve managed to build a very successful business, but also one where the quality gets better and better. And it’s based off of transformation over information. And my question for you is you have a very non traditional background. And what why do you think you’re one of those people that reached the, that higher level is higher tiers and gonna go keep going higher and higher? For most people who are smart, who are great marketers or great coaches? They just don’t reach that level?

Russ Ruffino 4:43

That’s a really great question, actually.

Um, you know, so

there’s a few things I think that because in this industry, the money can come so fast. And because in this industry, sometimes it can feel like you’re not really doing anything, right like So remember, I remember when I first started making some a little bit of money online some affiliate commissions, right? I was always so blown away that I could be watching TV or walking through the park or you know, love doing whatever and my phone would go off budding and I get an email, I just made 100 bucks. Like that feeling right? There is so surreal, you know that you kind of feel like, I didn’t do anything. And I just, I just made some money, you know. So I think that so many people are operating from a place of scarcity, where they just want to make some money. They’re like, they’re so focused on sales, and they’re so focused on getting money in the door, that they never really stop and think about, okay, well, what kind of experience Am I gonna provide for the people that actually buy this thing from me? You know, what kind of support Am I going to give them. And so from the very beginning, even back in the days, when we were doing low ticket stuff, before we got into like more high ticket, you know, transformational coaching, I just always felt tremendous pressure to do a fantastic job for my clients. And so, if you can sort of chart my career in internet marketing, every single decision that I’ve ever made, from pricing to marketing strategy to everything has really just been built around what’s going to get the best outcomes for my client. And I think it’s just a very different jumping off point, you know, because most people start out thinking, How am I? What’s gonna make me the most money? Right? Yeah, so you know, and then I think there’s a lot of people too, that are that are very, like, you know, significance driven, they want to be on stage, they want the limelight, they want the bajillion followers, they want people to smash that like button and get those likes, and all that other stuff. And, you know, it’s like, it’s like, that’s fine. But you are, if that is your, your your core driver, you are going to make a completely different set of decisions. And if making money is your core driver, you’re gonna make a completely different set of decisions. But if serving the client is your core driver, I think that’s gonna put you on a totally different path. And I think that’s been a big part of it is this from day one, our priority has always been what’s going to get the best outcomes for our clients. And to me, everything else is secondary.

Michael Simmons 6:54

Right? And I can really see that. So the choices you made, you’re one of the pioneers to really go the high ticket offer. Yeah, which is, you know, what you need to do to really offer people the coaching and support they need to transform, right? Like you’ve just kept on adding more and more support over time. And I think one thing that’s really interesting is this online curriculum and content where it is, I think we’re finally getting to a place where it’s realized that giving people the content, and then doing it self serve, maybe the most motivated people can use that most people, there’s mindset challenges and things like that. So I was curious, how has your model of what it takes for someone to actually transform and get a result? How has that changed? And what does it look like now? Yeah, so

Russ Ruffino 7:47

once you So the thing is, once you make that your top priority, you figure out pretty quickly what works and what doesn’t? Because it’s like, okay, are my clients getting results? Yes, or no, if they’re not, Alright, we got to change something. Um, so the first big discovery was the impact of premium pricing. So when I was doing when I first started out, we were doing what everybody else does, we’re selling, you know, $27 ebooks, or maybe a $97, or one nine, or 190 $7 video course or something like that. And you know, all those things sold well. And they were always really well received, you know, people would hit me up and say, Russell, that video, of course, it was awesome, great. And then I’d say, okay, dude, awesome. You liked it? What would you do with it? So Oh, yeah, well, you know, I got a bunch of other courses to get through first, and then I’ll get around to taking action on that one. And they just like, heard that over and over and over again. Now, like, Look, from a from a purely, you know, capitalist perspective, it’s, you know, there’s an argument where you could say, well, you know, hey, I wrote a book, they bought the book, they read the book. That’s it, who cares if they took action or not. And you know, they’re happy, I’m happy, they got what they paid for, and it’s all good. But I really wanted to get people that outcome. I really wanted to get people the outcome I’ve always seen from the beginning, if you’re a coach, if you’re a consultant, if people are coming to you to advance their life in some way, it’s not enough to just say, Hey, you know, here’s, here’s instructions on how to do it, and I go figure this out, you want to make sure they actually get that outcome. And so that was the decision that I made. And, and I decided to sort of re-engineer everything I was doing around that. So whereas before, I might do a launch of let’s say, you know, $47, or something, or whatever, and sell 1000 copies of it. I said, Well, what if we flip this on its head and charge the premium price 3,000 6,000 8,000 $10,000 for what we did, and just work with a handful of people every month, you know, how would that change the dynamic. And what happened was people came in at those premium prices, they were ultra motivated, because they invested at a premium price. Like they did everything I told them to do. I could give them a true VIP experience because now I was only only had to work like 5 10 people a month at least in the beginning. And I could really go to bat for them and make sure they were taking action. And I could really give them the support that they needed. And you know when you have 1000 customers or like you see these people Do these big launches where they they get like 7000 customers at once those people aren’t getting getting good support. There’s no way it’s physically impossible. How can you do that? You can’t coach I you know that many people. So with us, we, we figured out a framework where Yes, we can teach people how to do it, we can also hold their hand along the way and support them each and every step. And the moment we started doing that, it’s like, that was the game-changer in the business, the revenue for the business went through the roof. Our client results went through the roof, I had a lot more freedom again, because we were working with fewer clients. And I was just happier. It was just it was like, that’s what you want. You know, for me, I always wanted to build a business that gave me three things income, freedom, and impact. So can I make the money I want to make? Can I kind of have the freedom to enjoy that money? But am I really making a difference in people’s lives. And it wasn’t until we made that switch from like a low ticket thing to like, like high ticket transformational coaching, that all really kind of came together in a beautiful way. And it still is, as we continue to grow.

Michael Simmons 10:59

Yeah, it’s actually really counterintuitive. If you haven’t done that, on multiple levels, number one, if you’re doing high ticket, no high touch, too many people they would think well, that’s not as much freedom as having a self serve thing where people buy a course and go through it. How have you been able to have $15 million company? 31 employees? That’s like 500,000 in revenue per employee? What? How is that possible? How do you think about that?

Russ Ruffino 11:34

I don’t know. We just do it. So yeah, it seems like it’s going to be easier, but it is not. And that was what really blew my mind. Right. So there was a couple sort of, you know, sayings or, or, you know, little pearls of wisdom or whatever that got thrown around when I was first starting out, right. And one of those things was, you know, man, it’s just as easy to make a $10,000 sales or just to make a $20 sale. And I was like, there’s no way that that’s true. But it kind of is true. And then the other thing that people would say is that, you know, if people are investing with you at a premium price, they’re going to be super high maintenance, they’re gonna be super fussy. You know, you know how successful people are, they’re kind of a pain in the butt, all that stuff. And what I found is that the opposite is true. When I would sell somebody a $27 ebook, they would think that they owned me, and they would email me 20 times a day with questions and all this other stuff, then you multiply that times 1,000 2,000 3,000 customers, and it just, it’s, it’s, it’s insane. Whereas when I would work with fewer people, and they would come in at a premium price, they were the coolest people in the world. They were there. They were not dabblers. They were absolutely committed to getting doing the work, absolutely committed to getting the outcome. And they did. I told them what to do. They did it, and they got the outcome. And to me, that was just like, Oh, you know, it’s like, that’s like what you want, you know, you want to be making an impact in people’s lives, you want to be making a difference in people’s lives, because to me, it’s like, Look, man, I don’t really care how much money I make. You know, if you’re, if you’re, if you’re making $500,000 a month, versus making a million dollars a month, like your lifestyle is not really gonna change all that much. But what you get hooked on what you get addicted to is the impact. They’re making the lives of your clients, where there’s businesses that are thriving, multimillion-dollar businesses today, were the people were on the verge of bankruptcy when I first met them, and that is ultimately what gets you out of bed in the morning. You know, that’s what feels so good. That’s really what you get hooked on. And I think in a way, that’s a really healthy thing. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s certainly better than, you know, just being hooked on more and more and more and more money, more money, more money, or like, or, like, you know, more followers, more followers more likes more likes, you

Michael Simmons 13:38

know, so, yeah, it really is true. They I think with life, they can program. These vanity metrics. Yeah. So, on the transformation side, what do you think is required for transformation? There’s more that people need. They don’t realize or that most thought leaders think they don’t realize going into that. Yeah.

Russ Ruffino 14:02

So there really is three things. And this is this is what we’ve found. So obviously, you need a world-class strategy. Right? So the content itself, if you want to call it content, let’s just say the the solution, the formula, the information piece, right? That information has got to be world-class, it’s got to be good enough. So that if somebody follows it step by step that will actually solve the problem. Now, right there, that eliminates, like, 95% of the different programs and things that are out there. Because either it’s just a grab bag of information, or it’s like a bunch of unproven ideas, or it’s just, you know, kind of thrown together where they just throw a bunch of information at you. And it’s not step by step. Most of the information that’s out there is not very good. And I think, you know, you read 10 books on any given topic, and that becomes really obvious really fast, or like, they’ll be like one guy out of the 10 that really knows what he’s talking about. So right there, you’ve got to have world-class. A World-Class solution to the problem, okay. But that’s not enough because like we talked about just giving people the answer, and then and then setting them free to go to go figure it out is that’s not going to get the job done, you know, maybe if the person is very smart and very motivated, and really has their stuff together, but that’s one client in 200, or one client and 1,000,

you know, so

the information has to be world-class, the next thing that has to be world-class is you have to give world-class strategic support. So for example, in our program, we teach people how to how to market their high ticket programs the way that we market ours. And so in order to do that, we have to teach them how to do a great webinar, we have to teach them how to do Facebook ads. But but but we also have to go the extra mile, and give them all the support that they need around that. So for example, my team works with our clients to write a Facebook ad, that’s brilliant. My team works with our clients to write a webinar, that’s brilliant, my Facebook, people are telling them exactly who to target and exactly how to set up their account exactly what the bidding strategy is every piece of it. And that’s, that’s something that requires hand-holding, because the truth is, the way that a relationship coach or dating coach is going to market their business is probably very different in the details than the way like a fitness coach or a business coach is going to market their business. And someone has to come in and bridge that gap and show them how to do it. Right.

Michael Simmons 16:22

Yeah, so you’re really one on one support or advice customized to their situation. And you say handholding or you’re writing a Facebook ad or doing a webinar. What do you mean by that?

Russ Ruffino 16:34

What I mean is that they select, let’s say, somebody comes to work with us who’s a chiropractor, okay, we’ve had a lot of chiropractor clients, and they’re great at cracking backs, they’re great at snapping necks, you know, whatever, whatever they do, but they don’t know anything about marketing. So it’s like, Okay, great, I can show you our step-by-step format for making a webinar, right, and I can explain it to you in great, great detail, make it as easy as I possibly can. But at the end of the day, you don’t have 10 20 years of copywriting and marketing experience under your belt. And so even if that information is fantastic, the job that you’re going to do is probably not as good as the job that someone who does have that experience is going to do. So the way that we bridge that gap is I show you how to do it, you do it, you submit it to my team, and we rewrite it together until it’s absolutely perfect. So you get to sort of borrow not just our strategy, but borrow our skill set as well. So when you teach people information, it’s great because that information is probably going to be the same like for 80% of your clients or, you know, you’re going to cover 80% of the same stuff with every single client. That’s the stuff you want to put in your videos and stuff. So you have to say that stuff over and over again. But there’s that 20% that needs to be individually custom-tailored for each and every client. That’s the part where you need to provide that live support. It doesn’t have to be one on one, you can do it in a group call, like we do zoom calls. And on the zoom calls, we have like breakout rooms where we have like a copy room where if you need help with your copy, you can go here to the Facebook room, if you need help with your Facebook stuff, you go here and so on. So that you can do it in a leveraged way. So you still have your freedom. But by adding that extra dimension of support the results your clients get, it’s going to be night and day better than if you were just giving them the information and sending them on their way. But there’s actually a third piece that goes into two so you got your world-class information. You need world-class strategic support. But I believe you also need world-class mindset support. And this is something I resisted for a really long time because Look, man, I’m not a mindset coach. I’m, you know, I’m a strategist, you know, business strategist. And so I figured, man, look, I give people the best strategy in the world, I hold their hand and coach them every step of the way to implement it, do this, then do this, you know, rewrite their webinars, whatever it takes, I thought that that would be enough. And what we found as we and that’s originally how Clients on Demand, our program was built. But what we found as we went as we went on, is that what really got in people’s way, wasn’t that they didn’t know how to do they couldn’t do the strategy. It was fear. It was fear. It was self-doubt. It was overwhelm it was self-sabotage. You know, even things like oh, Russ, I just had my first $100,000 month, and I’m freaking out. I’m like, Wait, what? What are you freaking out about? You just made $100,000 in one month. But that was more money than anybody who had ever lived in their family at any point throughout all of human history had ever made. And so they hit that Like comfort zone, and just would freak. So what I did was I hired some of the best mindset and performance coaches in the world to come and be on my team. And that was like the second game-changer. Because now you know if you can have the best strategy in the world, but if you’re terrified and you’re in fear, and you’re overwhelmed, you’re never gonna be able to execute it properly. And if you’re, if you’re if you’re if you want results, you have to be operating outside your comfort zone, because if those results were in your comfort zone, you’d have those results already. So there’s stuff that you need to do that you’ve never done before that freaks you out that you’re afraid of that you’re in resistance or whatever. And somebody’s got to be there to coach you through that piece. So if you have those three components, if you have great a great solution, a world-class strategic support and world-class mindset support, then you can have a program that’s really transformational. And that can really command a five 8 10 or $15,000 price on the front end.

Michael Simmons 20:21

Yeah, yeah, I really, really seen this in a writing course. Yeah, is we help people write blockbuster articles online. And I’ve been writing for a while. So for me, it’s it’s kind of like you take it and you put it online, I really realize that there’s so many challenges that come your way. And what I also noticed is that people make up when we when people go into your they see makeup, and I reply on things, a makeup, kind of very logical, mincing things to them. And there’s always a next thing. No, so at some point in our course, we’re like, Okay, if we keep on trying to answer each one logically, no, there’s gonna be a new thing. Yes. Think about what it takes to help somebody go through the emotional challenge of basic fear and their mind. Yeah, giving them reasons why the fear is why they stopped doing this, giving them the

Russ Ruffino 21:14

mindset coaching really is its own skill. So my Managing Director, Jayne Jewell is also our head mindset coach, in my opinion, she is the best mindset performance coach on the freakin planet. I mean, she’s, she’s unreal. And it’s an art, getting people to really understand what’s truly going on. Because Look, man, I can give people advice, right? I can listen to somebody, and I can try to change their perspective on things. But the stuff that the mindset coaches do in our program, I mean, to me, it’s like magic, you know? Because how often do you have a conversation with someone I’m, like, really think about this for a minute, how often you have a conversation with someone where you actually convince them of something. You’re talking to somebody that voted for Trump, you’re talking to somebody that voted for Biden, you’re talking to somebody that is, you know, religion, a and you’re religion B? And, like, are you ever gonna change a person’s mind? No, like, literally never happens? Like never happens, you know, but they have a way of taking someone’s deeply rooted belief. I’m not good enough. Why would anybody buy anything from me, I’m a failure. I’m, I’m, I’m an imposter. I don’t deserve this. You know, God, who doesn’t want me to have money, you know, all of these, like, toxic stories that people have been carrying around, since they were like, five, they have a way of bringing that stuff to the surface, and giving the client the power to really look at it and just decide, hey, man, this isn’t serving me anymore. Let me let this go. And let’s come up with a new, more empowering story and a new and more empowering identity and plug into that. And I really think that’s the stuff. You know, if you if you read the reviews that people write of Clients on Demand, like, yeah, they’re talking about, yeah, I made more money, and I got more clients, and I’m charging higher prices. And also, they’re awesome stuff. But you also have this whole other level where people are like, I am a different, stronger, happier person today than I was eight weeks ago, because there was all this stuff that I was resisting, and now I’m not resisting it anymore. And I’ve let this stuff go. And I’m just happier and stronger, more confident, all that other stuff. Now, we don’t advertise any of that, right? Like, you’re not gonna hear me talk about that stuff. In our webinars. It’s kind of like this surprise, when people get into the program, they just want to learn how to you know, how to get better clients, how to charge more prices, and all that stuff. But then they realize that there’s a real transformation that you have to go through. And I know because I went through it, you know, if you had talked to me, in 2014, you’d be talking to you know, it’s still me, same mannerisms, same sense of humor, same everything. But I’m a radically different, stronger, more confident entrepreneur today, at 15 million a year than I was at, you know, two million a year, or wherever we were at back then.

Michael Simmons 23:58

Yeah, yeah, I think you’re while we first working together, I think you’re at 1.5 million. Yeah. Yeah. And so so so I

Russ Ruffino 24:04

think about how many challenges I have had to overcome. And every time you have to overcome a challenge, and every time you have to have a difficult conversation, every time you have to fire somebody every time you have to tell somebody, no, I’m sorry, I don’t think we’re fit to work together. You know, you get stronger and stronger and stronger and stronger, and you can handle more and more and more and more and more. And that is how your business grows and expands because you grow and expand as a person. So people are like Russ, you know, if I want to advance spiritually, what should I do? You know, should I go go sit in a cave and meditate? I’m like, no, go go start a business, because it’s gonna force you to evolve as a person

Michael Simmons 24:41

very, very quickly. Business. Marriage, marriage, kids, yeah totally. So yeah, the way I almost look at it now is you’re selling an outcome. Yeah. But then, really what you’re selling in a way is mindset shift. There’s everything you talked about, but feels like a large like for, for knowing you five years ago and then now, mindset, depth is a really big part of it. You feel like at that level you’re almost selling. That’s what you’re selling that personal transformation.

Russ Ruffino 25:16

Well, the thing is, you know, that’s what we provide. By but it’s not what we sell. Because most people, it’s not my mindset, dude, I got this, okay, I just show I just I look, man, I just need to know how to do Facebook ads, okay? It’s not my mindset, there’s nothing in my mindset, I swear to God, I’m awesome. I’m super cool. I’m super happy. Can you tell? I’m super positive? You know? Like, it’s not, you know, most people don’t understand that. That’s what it is. And so, you know, so there’s that right. And then the second thing is that most of the people that are offering that are offering it because they don’t have a strategy. And so they’re saying, No, no, no, no, you don’t need to worry about Facebook ads, because your mindsets screwed up. So it’s like, it’s like, it’s like this double-edged sword where like, the mindset coaches out there don’t have a strategy. And when you ask them for a strategy, they’re gonna be like, No, no, no, you don’t, don’t worry about that. Just focus on your mindset. Well, that’s not enough, man. You know, if you want to do Facebook ads, someone’s going to show you how to do freakin Facebook ads, I’m going to show you how to advertise how to market yourself how to generate leads, that strategic piece is super, super important. That is the piece that everybody thinks that they need, and they do need it. But they’re not aware that there’s this whole other component that runs under it. And so what happens is people come into Clients on Demand, they’re super excited, they begin to learn the strategy, they’re full of enthusiasm. And then they realize that the stuff that you need to do is outside your comfort zone. Right? If you’ve never charged $6,000 or $8,000, or $10,000, before, you’re gonna have to say to somebody, yes, that will be $6,000, please, you know, like, and that’s terrifying for people. So when people experience that fear, then we come in with the mindset work, and then it’s like, oh, man, that’s the thing that I was missing. But you don’t, most people don’t realize they’re missing it until they’re walking through the fire. And they go to, they think to themselves, I don’t know if I can do this. And that’s when we swoop in and come in with this incredible support. Whereas if I, if I went to everybody and said, Hey, man, yeah, come sign up for my program, we’ll give you all this mindset support, like 90% of people are like, dude, mindset is not the problem. So

Michael Simmons 27:14

it’s fascinating. I wonder why people don’t realize that just day-to-day life just feels like a huge blind spot in the education system that people don’t realize. As consumers, they don’t realize they need mindset.

Russ Ruffino 27:26

It drives me It drives me crazy. Cuz because you see people live the same year, over and over and over again, you see people have the same bad relationship over and over and over again. And it’s the rare person that realizes that. They’re the problem, you know, like, like, eventually, you have to come to the conclusion that you’re the problem, okay? Like, I mean, if you’ve, if you’ve had 20 relationships, and every relationship, you know, every girlfriend you’ve ever had screamed at you and stormed out the door. You got to say,

maybe it’s me, you know,

So I think I think it’s tough for people to have that realization because it’s hard. You know, it’s hard to take responsibility for your own stuff. One of the things I say to my clients is that until you take responsibility for your own life, you are useless. You know, and I’m not saying that no one has ever victimized you, you know, because people do awful things to other people. And everybody has had situations where a parent or a friend or a mentor or someone, let them down in his colossal way, and you’re filled with hurt, and resentment, and all this other stuff. That’s the human condition, we all go through that. But at some point, you have to say, Look, man, this is my life, and no one’s going to live it for me. And I it’s my responsibility to create my own destiny, regardless of who’s standing in my way, regardless of who doesn’t believe in me, regardless of who cheated on me or beat me up or whatever, it doesn’t matter at because it doesn’t change. None of that stuff changes the fact that this is my life, and I gotta live it. So at some point, you have to let go of those. Those sweet, comforting, you know, excuses and blame and just say, look, I got to take responsibility for my life. You know, if I want this, it’s my job to make it happen. No one else is going to do it for me, not the government, not my parents, not my family. Nobody, I have to do it.

Michael Simmons 29:24

So not like you went to an Ivy League school and then was like, be shot off right away the first 10 years of your career. Were weren’t taking off, though. What do you How did you kind of do that for yourself? Was there a series of moments Did you get coaching fail to realize that the results you were creating weren’t what you wanted, and then to really do the work? Think bigger?

Russ Ruffino 29:49

Yeah, that’s exactly what happens. So

I, my background was in acting and I think That

being an actor and doing it at a high level, right, I mean, and I and I, you know, I mean, I didn’t have like a lot of success in my career, but like, as far as the training I was having and all that stuff, it was at a very high level. Like a lot of the people that I worked with and grew up with are really pretty famous right now. Um, so so just being an actor, you just become very aware of your own psychology and the impact of your beliefs and your emotional triggers. And, and sort of like where those buttons are, you know, if you have to cry in a scene, you have to know what is that trigger for you that you can think about? That’s going to produce that response in you, right? So just as an actor, you know, you’re you’re aware of, of emotionally What, what, what’s going on with you and psychologically, and I was a bartender from age 21, to age 31. And, you know, it’s funny, because the entire time I was bartending, I was doing whatever, mindset work, I knew how to do at that time, like I would do, you know, affirmations, or gratitude or affirmative prayer or whatever, you know, different things I was doing back then. But here’s the thing, man, I would say to myself, you know, I’m a millionaire, I’m a millionaire, I’m successful, I’m successful. But anybody can do that. Most people won’t even do that. Right. But anybody can set goals and do affirmations. Right. But I think what really gets people is that it’s not enough to just do those affirmations. It’s not enough to just do that work. You can’t tell yourself, thank you. Thank you, thank you that I’m a multimillionaire for 15 minutes out of the day, and then spend the other 23 hours and 45 minutes living in a way that completely contradicts that. And that’s what I was doing. You know, I started my online business, I was making an extra couple 100 bucks a week, which was kind of cool. And extra, maybe six

Michael Simmons 31:45

What year was this around?

Russ Ruffino 31:47

This was around 2010.

Michael Simmons 31:50

I think you’re at this point, you’re like, 30

Russ Ruffino 31:54

Yeah, yeah, that was the thing. It was right after I turned 30, because I turned 30. And I was like, Oh, my God, I got to do something with my life. Right? My 30th birthday, I was sitting in the lobby bar of the Palazzo hotel with my girlfriend, who’s now my wife, just crying into my drink, like a fool because I because my life sucked so much. And I thought I was gonna be so much more successful by the time I was 30. And I was like, I gotta do something about this. So I did some research into into into doing an online business. And all I wanted to do at that point was get out from behind the bar. I was like, I can’t pour another drink. I just can’t, you know, I still want to do acting, I still want to, you know, what, Rudel, you know, you’re going to lead acting like you have a big aspiration. And your peers, some of the people become some famous actors, actors, that must have been, well, it was very, very, very, very tough. Because they were more talented than me in some things. But they weren’t more talented than me and everything. And I and they would even say that, like, you know, I might not have been the best singer or dancer. But when it came to just like straight acting, I was really great at that part. But But yes, it was very tough. And that’s part of why like, when I turned 30, I was like, something has to give here. I’m not going to be a 40-year-old bartender waiter, you know, trying to make it trying to make it work. And in the beginning, Michael, I just wanted to make an extra 100 bucks a day. I was like, if I could figure out how to make $100 a day, dude, I wouldn’t have to bartend anymore. And that’s like $3,000 a month. Why would I even do that much money if I didn’t have to work anymore. That was like my thing. And so I just kind of just started trying different stuff online. And I started trying, you know, affiliate marketing or like selling ebooks or this or that or the other thing, but going back to what I was talking about before, I kind of had the wheels turning right where I was making an extra 100 bucks, 200 bucks a week, right? Not nearly enough where I could actually quit my job. And one day, I thought to myself, you know what, man? What am I doing here? Sitting here every day saying, I’m a millionaire. I’m a millionaire. Thank you that I’m so successful. Thank you that I’m so successful. What am I doing? corner, my bartending job every day. If I were really a millionaire, but I still be bartending, no. So what would happen if I actually put my money where my mouth was, and jumped off the cliff and quit my bartending job, even though I’m not making enough money online to support myself? And somehow intuitively, I just knew that that’s what I needed to do. And so I took that risk, and I quit my job and I figured, what the hell man if it if it goes south, I could borrow money, somehow, someway stay alive, and then get another bartending job. But if it goes, right, this could change the rest of my life. And I remember on my last day, actually, I don’t think I’ve talked about this before. My last day I walk out of the bar, really happy and excited and elated. And I get in my car to turn on the radio and just randomly that song “Ribbon in the Sky” by Stevie Wonder was playing and there’s this amazing part where he goes, you know, we can’t lose if God’s on our side. I find strength there in the tears we’ve cried or something like that. And when I turned it on, it was right at that part. And I remember just like sitting in my car like crying and like sobbing with joy, that I finally gotten out from behind the bar. And I felt alive for the first time in my life, because whatever was gonna happen to me, was my doing it was my destiny at that point. You know, when I was a bartender, I really I was just very aware that I could get fired at any minute. I didn’t think I was gonna get fired but like a lot of people around me got fired and for no for apparently no reason. So it was just like my fate, my futures in someone else’s hands, my managers a bad day fires me, it’s over. For the first time. If I was going to succeed, or if I was going to fail, it was on me. And I felt that in a really powerful way. So I went to bed that night, ecstatic, excited, filled with enthusiasm. I woke up the next morning in absolute moral terror of just like, what have I done, but But what was crazy was that fear and adrenaline. I’ve never worked harder in my life, I’ve never been more focused in my life. 6 am, I’m at Starbucks, because I didn’t even have good internet, where I live, I’m at Starbucks on my laptop, like, like, furiously, trying to do stuff to build this business. And, you know, man, it worked. And then that like long story short, that first year, I made $250,000, which was, I don’t think I had ever made more than 20 grand, maybe 22 grand a year as a bartender and 10 years. In my first year online. It was I did $250,000. And but my point is that it’s not enough to think positive, it’s not enough to do the gratitude and do the affirmations. Because at some point, you’re going to be faced with a situation where you have to take that leap of faith.

And if you don’t take it,

it’s like the universe, God, whatever says, Oh, you know, Michael was doing all his affirmations. But he didn’t really mean it. Because if he really meant it, he would have jumped.

Michael Simmons 36:53

Yeah. So, you know, you’ve had to do this over and over. I remember when we were working together, you’re at a million. Yeah. And you’re saying you’re gonna do $10 million? next year? You said it very confidently. Like, I was like, Okay, I mean, acting? Normally, I, you’re at 1.5, you’re like, Okay, let me go to 2 million or something like that. Yeah. And then now you’re talking about going to 50 million, and then over 100 million size company? What leaps of faith? Are you looking at? for yourself that got to that level? You have to you have to think differently? How do you think about that right now? Yeah, so

Russ Ruffino 37:29

it’s like, so for example, one of the, you know, we started out in the conversation, I think I mentioned something about roadblocks, that you have to, you know, dissolve, right. So one of our roadblocks in our business is, you know, has always been lead flow. So we advertise on Facebook. And our audience is a little different. You know, we work with coaches, consultants, experts, authors, thought leaders, and the number of those people is not infinite. It’s not like if I worked with, you know, single woman who want to find the love of their life, you know, there’s hundreds of millions of those. But the entire coaching industry, or consulting industry is probably what, four or 5 million people, you know, right now. And so based on that your audience size is only so big, you can only reach so many people with your advertising, and therefore, you can only get so many leads. So we figured out a way to overcome that Roadblock, where now we can get probably eight to time eight to 10 times as many leads as we could before, and I’m really excited about that. But I’m gonna have to spend $400,000 a month on ads to scale it to the level that I want, you know, if we’re doing $50 million a year, I would anticipate that I’ll probably be spending spending, spending a million dollars a month on advertising. So that is what I’m talking about. Like, you know, that’s, that’s, but that’s what it takes, you know, it, it’s that same fear. I mean, when I launched my first Facebook ads campaign $20 a day on Facebook, that was a lot of money to me back then. You know what I mean? But you have to take the risk, you have to take the leap of faith. That is why not very many people are cut out to own their own business. It’s not because they’re not smart. It’s because they cannot deal with risk.

Michael Simmons 39:08

You know what I mean? Yeah, when you’re thinking about that leap of faith, is it often financial for people? What are the different types of those like, okay, you need to make an investment, or you need to keep I

Russ Ruffino 39:18

mean, it’s any anything in your anything in your life, you’re in a relationship, right? That is absolutely awful, and you’re not happy, but you stay. Right? And you can sit there and do all the affirmations and gratitude and whatever that you want. Thank you for my amazing relationship. But if that relationship isn’t changing, and you know, it’s not right, you have to make a leap of faith and trust that, okay, if I if I if I get out of this relationship, I will end up with someone better, right. I mean, this isn’t just something that happens in business. It happens in everything that we do. You try out for the football team, you try out for the basketball team, you know, you’ve got that thing you’ve always wanted to do, and you’re dreaming of it and you’re thinking about it, but you’ve got to pull the trigger and go for it. And that’s what I to me, for me that was quitting my job, but it’s an You know that I’m not telling everyone out there to go quit their job because everyone’s destiny in life and priorities and goals are different. But there is something in your life right now that you are terrified of doing. And that is the thing, usually that you most need to do. And until you step up and do that thing, things aren’t going to change.

Michael Simmons 40:19

Yeah, you mentioned even raising your price. That’s, that’s an example that doesn’t cost a lot of money. But to go to someone, and to say, hey, my program is $10,000, when you’re not used to charging that much, it’s really hard requires that we have so counterintuitive, that requires a leap of faith.

Russ Ruffino 40:35

When I made that shift, I had to I looking back, I probably didn’t need to do it this way, right. But I had like, all my low ticket stuff was still going, still selling. And I decided, you know what, man, the low ticket thing is fine. But I want to really get people results, I want to just focus totally on premium price stuff. So I shut off all my low ticket stuff. Before I had any idea, how did you do the high ticket stuff. So that so there was a good like, and this would have been, I think like mid 2013, I think there was like a good three months there where I made almost nothing. Because I shut off everything I was selling before. And I took that leap of faith to move into the higher ticket thing. I had no idea how to do it, I’d figure out how to do it. And then once I figured it out, like it just clicked kicked in. And that was amazing. But yeah, man, there was a good three months there. I was like, you know, like really running up credit cards. And like, you might have American Express calling and going like, Hey, can I raise my limit a little bit? Because, you know, but that’s, that’s what it takes. And that’s what that’s what people are so

Michael Simmons 41:36

you know, afraid to do. But you have to do that. Yeah, we have that in our business. We have our learning virtual course and our mental model course. And our Seminal course. And when you said that, I was like, Man, what would it be like down lower ticket courses, but those are bringing in money and go to this other program? That’s that takes a lot of the onus? Yeah,

Russ Ruffino 42:00

it takes guts. But it’s, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s, it’s well rewarded. And the thing is to I just want to be clear, I’m not telling everybody to just like leap before they look, you know, you know, do what’s called inversion thinking,

right? So

take a second and ask yourself, what’s the worst-case scenario? So most of the time when we’re thinking about making a big move, maybe we see the upside, we see how it could benefit us. But the idea of doing it, it just terrifies us. It’s like, it’s like an immediate reaction. You know, like, like, if I was like, Michael, here’s your raise your price to $10,000. You’ve never done that before your instant reactions be like, Oh, God, I don’t know if I can do that. Okay. Most of us leave it there. And we just sit in that fear and we allow that fear to paralyze us. But what I suggest you do is actually think it through. What is the worst-case scenario? You say, hey, that’ll be $10,000, please, and someone says no. Okay. That’s not that bad. Most of the time, the worst-case scenario is really not that bad. If you think it through. And then when you think it through, you can say to yourself, okay, well, if the worst-case scenario does happen, how can I How can I overcome it, and then you come up with a backup plan. And then you find a lot of these situations in life where you realize the upside is huge. And the downside isn’t that big, like, so again, with my with with quitting bartending, right. The upside was potentially massive, because I just had this feeling that I could build a really great business if I did. But the downside was, okay, if the worst-case scenario happens, and I’m an idiot, and I can’t do any of this stuff I think I can do, how would I survive? Well, I could borrow money from, you know, my credit cards, I could borrow money from my family or whatever, stay afloat, go get another bartending job. And I’ll be alright. So that so you think about you’re like, oh, that actually wouldn’t be that bad. But this is potentially awesome. And this isn’t really that bad. So let’s go for it.

Michael Simmons 43:50

You know, I’m gonna bring us I’m gonna loop us back there. Earlier in the conversation, we took a detour from something. Sure. And we went really deep into it. But I asked the question of, there’s a lot of other very smart driven internet marketers and coaches. So the first thing we talked about was that they really, you really focused on the customer first thought about really significant money. customer first. What are the other thing is I there’s a lot of very smart internet marketers doing things and, you know, do provide good program, not? Of course, there’s partner marketers who have bad program. Yeah. What do you think that’s your part as well?

Russ Ruffino 44:31

You’re kind of asking me to brag. Um,

so, um, I

think there’s so many ways this can go wrong. I mean, I see. You know, Napoleon Hill in the, if I remember correctly, like in the original mail order course, that eventually became like Think and Grow Rich or something like that. It was like reasons businesses fail. There was like, 100 of them. I’m like, like, the list of businesses was crazy. There’s so many many ways you can screw this up, man. I mean, you know, some people are not good with the details. And some people are not good at running a team. Some people aren’t good at hiring people. Some people aren’t good at inspiring people and leading people. Some people are just touchy, you know, some people allow the fear to paralyze them like, you know,

you.

There’s so as you scale your business, there’s so many skills that go beyond what you’re familiar with, you know, going back to the chiropractor, like I mentioned before, that guy knows how to rent an office, he knows how to crack backs. And you know, and that kind of thing, isn’t anything about Facebook ads, you know, and then, and then if he is going to build an online program, he doesn’t know anything about like WordPress, he doesn’t know anything about like hiring a graphic designer, he doesn’t know anything about that stuff. You know, and he can get, he can get scared, he can get overwhelmed, he can get pulled off the path to the left or to the right. He can, he can just make bad business decisions. We see that a lot with people where, you know, let’s say you spent $100 on Facebook ads, and you talk to two, three people, and you enrolled somebody at $5,000. I’ve literally you just spent 100 $100 to make $5,000. I’ve literally had people in that exact situation go Oh, well, no, I don’t want to spend any more money on Facebook ads, because I want to take care of this one person first. It’s like, you just gave Mark Zuckerberg 100 bucks, and he gave you back $5,000? Wouldn’t you want to do that again and again and again and again and serve more people and grow. So it’s like, there’s, it’s like that fear, I think is really what causes people to make terrible decisions. And then there’s just certain things in your personality that you have to compensate for, you know, I’m not a detail person, right, I can kind of adapt and get into the details if I really have to, but it’s not like my natural thing. I’m like a big picture guy. So I gotta surround myself with people that are gonna mind the details. And if I don’t, I’m gonna pay the price. So you, you just have to be hyper-aware of what you’re good at and what you’re bad at. and understand that if there’s a bunch of stuff that you’re bad at, it’s not necessarily a deal-breaker, but you got to find a way to make up for those shortcomings. Someone else in your company has to be the one that’s doing that thing. And I think that just gets it’s just hard. It’s just hard. This is

Michael Simmons 47:07

me bragging a little bit for you. Because looking for the outside in. You know, I heard another online course graders day that a pattern that people fall into is they have their niche, let’s say they fix people’s trees, people about fixing trees. But in order to be successful at that they have to become really good at marketing. The next niche they go into is marketing because they’re spending two years in funnels. They have all the money. And the next thing they go into is health, basically, because that’s all about like, how can I live a better life? And now that I have the money? So the niches up here free?

Russ Ruffino 47:44

No, I’m just staying really still. Wow, that was listening to you. I’m just kind of like, No, I’m still here.

Michael Simmons 47:51

That’s impressive. Yeah, those acting skills going back, yes. But uh, so the business follows them. And I sense that within myself, like, I’ve constantly my interests are changing. I like to focus on things that reflect me that, and you’ve been very focused on the past seven years, that you started the high ticket program, focusing the same customers, same problem, and you have different products, but they all are gonna have different levels of stock. Clients on Demand, Then there’s Lion’s pride, right? Alliance? All the same thing? What keeps you there? Part of me, my mind isn’t my mindset thing would be afraid of though, what if my interests evolve, or there’d be this other thing? There’s a huge opportunity over there. Let me jump on to that. Yeah, very focused.

Russ Ruffino 48:45

That’s a great, so I guess, one of the people that first got me into high ticket or that, you know, people are always doing high ticket but I, you know, the first the first kind of the first person I ever heard say, you can, you can sell a coaching program for $10,000 was somebody that is a brilliant marketer, just brilliant. But over the years, I’ve, I’ve watched him jump from one business model to the next, where, you know, he was doing like, he wanted to do one on one coaching and mentoring. And his, his thing was like, you could, you could sign up with him as a one on one mentoring client, and you would get to email him, and you would get to do a, I think it was like a 20 minute Skype call with him every other week. And you can ask him, you know, whatever you wanted, and that was like a few $1,000 a month or something like that. So he built that up to the point where you had like, 50 people in there, right? And so he’s making four or $500,000 a month with that or something like that. And our product 250 300,000 a month, and he ran it for two, three months, and then got bored and just shut it down was like I’m not doing this anymore, and shut it down and got rid of all his clients and then and then he had to look for a new business model. You know what I mean? So I saw this guy do this. And other people do this over and over and over and over again, where it’s like, it’s like, they were like a, you know, a dog chasing an ambulance. Like, you don’t know what you wouldn’t do that if you actually caught it? Well, they would catch it and can you know, and have this business that was thriving and successful, and then they would get bored or move on to another idea or whatever, and just drop it. And I was always just like, was like, what, you know, if you if you, if you if you have something that’s working, why wouldn’t you continue to work that thing. And then look, it’s one thing, if you’re just absolutely miserable, doing what you’re doing that of course, you shouldn’t keep doing it. But you know, it was more than that. It was this sort of, like, entrepreneurial add. And, and I watched that, and I saw that, and I was like, that’s not going to happen to me. I don’t want to be such a big stick in the mud, that I’m not innovating. And I’m not looking for ways to do things better and looking for ways to build a better mousetrap. But I’m not going to be one of those people that just jumps from one business to the next to the next to the next cuz I can’t sit still. Especially because I love what I’m doing, Michael like, I really love what I’m doing. I mean, I was, you know, we got a playground out there behind the house. And, you know, I’m sitting up pushing my son on the swing. And I looked at my wife and I was like, this is the best time of my life. I was like, I don’t I don’t look back to like, oh, in high school when I when I you know, caught the past that won the big game that was like my pee. You know, I was like, right now, this moment is the best time of my life. I am so freakin happy right now. And yeah, there’s stuff we want to do, you know, you maybe you want to get in better shape. Or maybe you want to, you know, scale your business $200 million dollars or whatever. But like, right now, I am so happy doing what I’m doing. And that also keeps you on the path because you’re like, I just love this, like,

Michael Simmons 51:40

you know, loving it. And maybe it’s personality types. Just because for me, I like the person I type or I’m like, I’m prone to the dining object or some either shiny object and it’s not shiny to them. It just feels like extra work that you are do you have? Did you have to discipline yourself?

Russ Ruffino 51:56

I did. I did. Yeah. And honestly, my team was it was a big part of it. You know, especially in the first few years of the business, I would come to my team with like, some radical crazy idea of something that I wanted to do. And they would say, Okay, look, well, let’s like let’s say I wanted to launch a whole new thing, right? Which means building a whole new funnel a whole new ad campaign, hiring people to staff at doing all this stuff, right? And we would run the numbers and say, Look, okay, if this works, you know, here’s the potential payoff financially. Here’s the investment of time and energy. Okay, so now we figured that out, then we would say, Okay, look, is there another way, we can generate that same amount of revenue with a hell of a lot less work. And there always was, it was always like, if let’s say our sales team is enrolling people at a rate of 25%. If we just got them to 26%, it would make all the money that that other big crazy project would make. So what’s a better use of our time, working with spending some time mentoring our sales guys to boost their conversion by 1%, which is easy, or launching a whole new thing. And it just, we just always would just come back to that, that we have this existing business, it’s thriving. And if we’re willing to put in our put in the work and get our hands dirty, and just go deep into the processes and procedures and trying to improve every little thing. And that’s really what scaling is about, you know, there’s certain things you can do that it’s going to make a quantum leap forward in your business, we just discovered some of those things now, but but most of it is just making tiny little improvements at each thing that just get better and better and better and better. But they add up to something huge. It’s like a it’s like a chess game, where like, if you watch chess players who are playing at the highest level, it’s not like some guy screws up and loses his queen. Like that just doesn’t happen at that level. You know, it’s it’s making those tiny, little positional advantages again, and again, and again, by the end of the game, they coalesce into something huge, that’s decisive. And, and I just was always very aware of that. And I asked my team, guys, if you see me like going off on some crazy ass tangent or whatever, just bring me back to like, the core. The core is the core of what we’re doing. You know,

Michael Simmons 54:02

I heard you know, when I was at NYU, we had the founder of Princeton Review, speak. Oh, yeah. I used to work for Princeton Review when I was in high school. What’s that?

Russ Ruffino 54:12

I worked for Princeton Review. Like, right when right? Yeah, right. When I got out of high school, yeah, it’s funny.

Michael Simmons 54:16

And he was basically saying, you know, they’re taking the company public. He had, he was like, he needed like, yeah, I had two people who he told were no people to him that did say no to his ideas. And he was like, that wasn’t enough. I needed more like seven or eight people. Because when if you’re an entrepreneur, you can be really stubborn. emotionally. You’re like they said, No, let me plow through it. though. You maybe intellectually understand it, but emotionally, you’re just in love with this idea. How did you discipline? Even if people are saying it really has to be you had to discipline that emotional part of your site? Oh, I don’t know. I mean, I don’t

Russ Ruffino 55:02

I don’t have any ego invested in that. And it’s a weird thing to say, because I know it’s not true, I’m sure that I do. But if someone comes to me with a better way to do things, I’m never going to shoot that down just because this is the way we’ve always done it. You know, I built this sales funnel. And this is how we do our sales funnels. And so that’s the way we’re going to do it until the end of time. I’m just not built that way. If you can show me a way to build a better mousetrap, I’m going to do it and then I’m going to teach my clients how to do it, and then they’re going to make more money and everybody wins. So I’m, I’m very open to people’s feedback. And if you if you read the Principles by Ray Dalio, which is like one of my favorite books, I mean, that’s the recurring theme through that whole book is that you’re going to be wrong, most of the time, your ideas are going to suck most of the time. And if you’re running a business, you should always be aware of that, you know, not that you shouldn’t have faith, if you really feel like something is the right move, of course, you should. And you got to take those leaps of faith, like I said, you should always be open to the fact that you are wrong. And many of those ideas are just bad ideas. You know, it looks good. But you take a second you think about it, you do the math, you do the numbers, and you realize this is like the longest possible path to get to where I want to go. That’s another obsession that I have is I’m always obsessed with finding the fastest, most efficient way to get to where I want to go. I’m very clear on what our outcome is. And it’s like, how can I get there in as few steps as possible? And that is like a meta-program that’s just always running in the back of my mind, how can I do this? With minimal expenditure of energy, I’m not one of those people that believes in like the whole rise and grind thing. If I believed in the rise and grind thing, I would still be doing live webinars, instead of automating my webinars, which makes us more money and saves me hundreds of hours. You know what I’m saying?

Michael Simmons 56:57

Yeah, well, I’ve really seen that in you. And it sounds obvious, why wouldn’t everyone want to do the most efficient thing? And the one thing that I lost my train of thought, is just constantly going back to simplicity. I noticed, I think, I think sometimes the mindset makes it more complicated than we feel I was just talking. I was doing a coaching call right before this. And I was like, his path to getting where he wanted was still convoluted. But it was just because he was afraid of the direct path. There was something he was afraid of. Yeah, it’s been too, though.

Russ Ruffino 57:30

I know. And I think that’s, I think that’s critical. And it’s, I’m glad you’re asking me about this stuff, because this is stuff that I don’t really think about, it’s just like, kind of the way that I operate. But I am obsessed with simplicity, how can we do this in as few steps as possible? And I really think Michael, like, I’m just lazy dude. Like, like, so many of the innovations that that that became Clients on Demand was just laziness. Like, people were like, you know, when I was first starting out, people were like, start a blog, start a YouTube channel, make, you know, post four videos a day and make tons of videos, and then eventually you build an audience and a following, and then eventually, those people will hire you intended. And in two years, you could be making, you know, $5,000 a month.

I was like,

I don’t want to do any of that shit. You know what I mean? Like, and so anytime I had that reaction of like, that sounds like really not fun. I would think to myself, well, there must be a better way to do this. There must be a more efficient way to do this and nine times out of 10 I would find it but I feel like if I was like, you know, I always look at guys like Jocko Willink. You know what I mean? Like Jocko Willink is all about hard work.

Michael Simmons 58:31

You know, Goggin,

Russ Ruffino 58:32

or David Goggins? Right, like, if I was David Goggins, I wouldn’t have had any of these innovations. Because I would have just said, a young man, I’m gonna make those, I’m gonna make those. They’re telling me to do four YouTube videos a day, I’m gonna do 20 YouTube videos a day, I spend eight hours a day making YouTube videos and grind it out. Well, it’s like, it’s no good climbing the ladder, if the ladder is leaning against the wrong tree, it’s no good climbing the ladder, if there’s an elevator right around the corner that you can take instead, you know, so in a way, I feel like, I’ve always been been very envious of those people that have that like insane work ethic and discipline, where they can do stuff that they genuinely do not enjoy, over and over and over and over and over again, to get what they want. To me. I’ve always been like, you know, there’s, if I don’t enjoy this, there’s a reason why if I don’t enjoy this, it’s because this is inefficient and stupid. So let me find a better way to do it. And, and that’s the way that I’ve kind of come up with any little innovation that I’ve ever come up with in the course of running this company to make things more efficient. And that’s how I think we were able to scale so fast, you know?

Michael Simmons 59:32

Yeah, wow. I’m processing it because it’s like, I get it. But then simplicity is one of those things that I get intellectually. Between two choices, parts, like go have one for me, actually, just having this conversation with my friend, Cal Newport. We went to high school together, we start our first business together. And we were talking about how beginning i would have all these ideas naturally resistant to them. Yeah. And now look at him. He just focused He’s been very focused on a few things. Yeah, like after seeing a path of decades, like, Okay, wow, this approach is really powerful. But it’s also hard to get the leverage on myself or the clarity. That Yeah. And like, for example, let’s say you really enjoy doing this. I’ve heard that entrepreneur, sometimes the part of the company that grows the slowest, is the part that they’re the best at and how do you think about possibly when stuff that you want to do? I just realized that

Russ Ruffino 1:00:37

every everything that I just realized that you can be a genius at something, but you’re not the only genius at something, you know, and there may be there may be things that you never, you know, you never give up. But that list should be really, really, really, really, really short. You know, if Steve Jobs thought that way, like, imagine if Steve Jobs was like, No, no, no, only I only I can build a computer, he would have been still working out of his garage, like, she wouldn’t have Apple, you know. So like, you have to, you have to humble yourself. And I think I think that’s an ego thing I really do. where, you know, for a long time, I said to myself, nobody can coach our clients on how to do a great webinar, but me, I’m the webinar guy, that’s my thing. But that’s not true. I got coaches now that do a better job than me coaching our clients on their webinars, you know, and, and you just, you just realize that if you want your company to grow, you have to get the hell out of the way. Um, you know, a pretty useful model I came across one time, I think, I think it’s, it’s been all over the place, I don’t know who to give credit to. But it basically looks at your businesses, it’s like triangle with like, four levels, right. And at the bottom level, you’re the operator. So right, like, like, it’s a pool cleaning business, you’re the guy out there, you’re the guy cleaning pools, then you become the manager, well, now you’re you go and hire a couple more pool cleaning guys, and you’re managing those people, right? Then you become the CEO, where you hire some more managers and your five or six pool cleaning teams, and about 15 20 people working for you. And you’re managing those guys cleaning the pool, you’re not cleaning the pool anymore, you’re managing them, you’re managing the managers. And then at the highest level, which is like the president of the company, you’re looking at the entire company itself as a product that can be bought or sold or traded. Right. And, and, and moving through those levels of abstraction, where you are less and less connected to the day-to-day tasks of the business, you’re not squeezing the lemons, you don’t I’m saying is weird and very hard for a lot of people. And it entails a whole new level, like I said before, of risk, and a whole new level of discomfort and a whole new level of self-doubt. And everybody’s got that number man, where you know, you’re going to make that money, and you’re gonna freak out. Because it’s just too much money. Everybody has that number. I don’t know where mine is. But I haven’t hit it yet. But I’ve seen it happen to a lot of other people. And I think the reason I haven’t hit it yet is because, you know, when I was in my 20s I was thinking I was gonna be like an Avenger, a movie star or something like that. So that’s what I’m kind of comparing my life to, you know, like, that’s where the bar is said is like Brad Pitt’s life. So as long as my life isn’t, is somewhere under not quite that cool, I’m comfortable. But for a lot of people that barometer is set a lot lower man like $50,000 a year $100,000 a year, you know, first person, your family to make a six-figure income, you know that that that resistance is real. And you worry what the people around you are going to say you worry about what your relatives are gonna say you worried what’s gonna happen when people ask, are people gonna ask you to borrow money now, you know, that fear can come out of nowhere. And it’s like, you have to be able to deal with it.

Michael Simmons 1:03:28

Right? Those on the one hand is the leap of faith, the unknown. On the other hand, there’s the barometer that’s coming off of your thermostat of what you have that for when you go beyond that starts feeling comfortable.

Russ Ruffino 1:03:42

The fear can come out of nowhere, that that self-doubt that self-sabotage can come out of nowhere. Like in a you know, like, I don’t believe in like a literal devil, okay, but like, if there is a devil, it’s that, like, I can’t, I’m not worthy enough. I’m not whatever. And it’s like, it can come at you from all kinds of different directions. Um, you know, what would my what would my, I don’t even know, just, I mean, like, like, like, so many different kinds of unworthiness that we see. And we see it come up with our clients where they just they don’t feel worthy of the success. And we have to get them to step into that higher identity where they understand Dude, you’re making the world a better place one client at a time. And so of course, you deserve all the success in the world. You know, you just got to believe it, you know,

Michael Simmons 1:04:23

or you’re making the success, something, it’s not going to be that get to x, y, z number, whatever it is a million or a million or this number of employees to help run the company. Not worth it, or I’ve seen that well.

Russ Ruffino 1:04:38

Yeah, I know. And I see that’s a great one. That’s a great one too, is this belief that you can’t see, I always tell my clients, you can have it just the way you want it. And I really and truly believe that you can have it just the way you want it. You want to set up your company a certain way you can do it that way. You want to set up a company where you know my old boss Okay, so my old boss Rick Caruso is I think the second richest real estate developer in, in Southern California, he owned the restaurant that I was bartending for like years and years. He takes I think he takes an entire, he takes all of August off,

just,

you know, guy’s worth, I think $4 billion, just August, I’m out, I’m on my yacht, forget it. That’s a choice that he has made. And he’s found a way to make it work. So so if you’re willing to solve problems, you can set it up just the way that you want it. But yeah, that’s a big one, Michael, where people go, you know, it’s that fear of success? Well, what if? What if, what are people gonna say about me, you know, or someone wrote a nasty comment on one of my Facebook ads, or, you know, somebody wrote an article about me, that was mean, or someone you know, did this or someone did that, like, you know, those things are gonna happen. And you, you have to deal with it, you know, because if you don’t, if you’re gonna let that limit you, then that’s your limit. That’s as far as you’re gonna go. So it’s a constant. The work on that stuff is constant and never-ending and it has to be a part of your daily routine. daily routine?

Michael Simmons 1:06:04

That’s one can’t talk about it. You’ve always been distant that I know. Yep. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Russ Ruffino 1:06:09

Yeah, of course. Sure. Yeah. Um, so I believe that when you focus totally on victory, God basically forces you to succeed. If you countenance no other possibility, and you keep your eyes set directly on the prize, it’s like everything you take action in accordance with that, just like we were talking about before, there’s a leap of faith, you take the leap of faith, that there’s something you gotta do you freakin do it, you have to have a difficult conversation, you have it, you know, you do the things you act in accordance with that vision of who you are, and who you want to be. If you do that, success becomes essentially inevitable. And so my daily routine is, and this is this is the secret man. And if I if I, if I had five minutes, like, let’s I was gonna die in five minutes, I had five minutes to teach my kids something, this is what it would be. The secret is be grateful in advance for the things that you want. So if you have a goal, it’s one thing to say to set that goal. And that’s powerful, right? But what’s 10 times more powerful is to allow yourself to mentally imagine yourself having that thing right now, and being thankful for it in advance. And that is what I do every single day. Thank you. Thank you, thank you for this beautiful house. You know, and I don’t have a house, I’m living in a crappy apartment. Okay, but I’m sitting there every day. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for my beautiful house. And I can see it in my mind. And I’m not seeing it as some distant faraway goal. I’m there in the house right now. I’m walking through it, feeling the joy, feeling the gratitude, feeling all this stuff. That’s the secret. Okay. Everything I’ve ever gotten and everything I’ve ever done, I’ve done that. First. you’re grateful in advance for what you want it, it just works. And I don’t know why I think it’s because you know, you’re kind of playing a trick on your subconscious or your subconscious. If you’re feeling the gratitude, your subconscious is like I already have this. And then you open your eyes and you don’t have it. And your subconscious is like, wait, I got to resolve this immediately. I have to bring this into your life. So I’ve done this with every awesome car I’ve ever bought in every house I’ve ever lived in my team members. Thank you, thank you, thank you for my amazing social media director. Okay, I don’t know what this person is gonna look like or whatever. But it always it’s always there. And then you just once you do that, you have to act in accordance with that thing. Like what would you do? If you already were that person? What would you do if you already had that thing? Would you quit your job? Would you get out of that relationship? What would you do? And you have to do it. You know, this house I’m living in now. It wasn’t the house that we wanted to buy. So we were living in Laguna Beach. And this house is in Lake Arrowhead and California about an hour and a half east of Los Angeles at about 6000 feet of beautiful forest. And my my wife and I have been coming up here for a really long time. You know, staying at the hotel staying here, but we just we loved it up here. And we’d always like kind of fantasize about what it would be like if we had a house up here. And so what I want to tell you is that when you do that process, not only do you get what you want, but nine times out of 10 you get something even better than you could possibly imagine. So I believe that God’s will for our life is just beyond our wildest imagination. So we had a house all picked out I was super excited about it was like 4500 square feet would have been perfect, you know, to have me there, you know, like four bedrooms, right? So would have been great to me, my kids, maybe my brother and my dad and my family for Christmas, you know, would have been cool to come up and have a white Christmas in the snow and everything. Our realtor takes us to a 19,000 square foot house. That’s a million dollars more than what we wanted to spend. And we walk into the house and I just get that feeling As the house and it’s like this little like warm kind of happy kind of scared kind of freaked out kind of adrenaline ish kind of a feeling. And Sarah, Sarah looks at me and she goes off.

She’s like, I know that look. And

I’m like, dude, we have to we this is we have to try to get this house because this house, it’s like it went from Okay, we can come up here with like my, you know, a couple family members at Christmas to like, we can literally host 20 people here like we did at Thanksgiving, and everyone has a bedroom and all the bedrooms, that stone fire, there’s like nine bedrooms, like we can really do some cool stuff here. And I just knew intuitively that this was the house is more than I wanted to spend. It was a lot of other things. But I was like, if I don’t act on this, I’m basically saying that all those affirmations that I did, I didn’t really mean it. This is the house. And so we got it, and it worked out great. And now we’re here that has happened with this house, with every house with every car, with every goal that you set for yourself. It’s a leap, but you make it and it turns out better than what you want, you know, the car that I got was better than the one that I went there to get the house that I got is better than the one that I want her to get. And, and you’re just so richly rewarded for that kind of faith that it’s a it’s magical. I mean, it’s like it’s like it’s like you’re Neo and you’re hacking into the matrix and you’re just making things happen. It’s it’s, it’s a crazy thing.

Michael Simmons 1:11:22

Yeah, it truly is, you know, there’s so many different fascinating ways that the mind works. I was reading a study about how athletes, if you do in the practice, but then if you’re actually visualizing yourself practicing and doing that actually, like your mind actually encodes that your skill level resets though, it really is always like hokey on the one hand, that like you create things in your mind and a half then people make fun of this secret. And but it is, through your mind is incredibly powerful, you have more power than you can imagine. But if you act in accordance with it and take these massive actions with it. For you, on a daily level, what does that look like? It’s like a 20 minute shower. Then afterwards you get out in journal Okay, what would I do if I already had that thing? Um,

Russ Ruffino 1:12:18

yeah, I do it in the shower. So So why the shower, right? It’s the only place that in my house that I’m not going to get bothered, right? Like, I’m, I hear my kids out in the hallway, right now I’m sitting, that’s why pause for a second cuz I was like, are they gonna come banging on my door, you know, it’s like, even in my office, I’m not safe. Okay? The shower is the one place where no one’s gonna bother me, I can go in there. And you know, like, the water is falling, and it’s relaxing anyway, and I just sit there. And I start out by being grateful for what I have. Now. You know, you start that’s where you start. Because you can always find something in your life to be thankful for. And in the beginning, when you’re, when you’re thanking God for something you don’t have, it’s gonna feel kind of weird. So to sort of bridge that gap, you start with what you what you really are thankful for, you know, thank you for the amazing pancakes I had this morning, oh, man, those were so good. You know, it can be something stupid, then you begin to incorporate the stuff that you want, and you know what you want, and you’re thankful for it in advance. And then as you’re being thankful for it, you should you should visualize it, you should you should watch a mental movie of something that would happen, if you really had that thing. Maybe you’re calling your dad and going Dad, you know, I just you know, had my first $20,000 month in my business, or we would tell your wife or whatever you would you would take a trip to Bora Bora or Tahiti. And you think about that, and you visualize it, and you savor it like it’s happening right now. And you let yourself feel all the joy and wonder and gratitude that you would feel if it were happening now. And then and then as you do that

you reach a point where you don’t want it anymore. Because you convinced yourself that you already have it.

Yours and you kind of reach this place of divine and I call it divine indifference. We kind of don’t care anymore. You know. And what that does, Michael is not only does it bring those things into your life, but remember how we talked about before that, that sometimes you can have amazing success and it freaks you out. This is a great safeguard against that. Because by the time I drove my Bentley, I had already driven it in my mind 100 times. So when I sat down in it, I was like, oh, man, this is the car. This is my car. And I had to I had to get it. You know, and it’s like, it’s like, that’s how I think about it. Now there’s one new Bentley, it’s in my garage right now. I don’t think about it. It’s just my car. I don’t care if my son took that car and my son, my old my old Bentley, right? My kid took a rock and drew on it. He decided to draw on the side of my car. scratch the hell out of it. Oh, yeah. And somebody came out I saw and I was like, What the hell is that? And Sarah was like, oh, Russell was drawing on your car with a rock. I was like, oh, okay, but you don’t care because it’s just a car. It’s a car that you brought into your life through the power of your thought and your action. And when you understand that you have the power to do that. You don’t really give a shit about any of this stuff. You know, it’s Like, once you have the recipe for gold, you don’t have to hoard piles of it. Because you can make more on every line.

Michael Simmons 1:15:06

It’s interesting because, you know, I think with traditional goal setting, you focus, read the goal outline every day. It can create a feeling of scarcity. I like the neediness. I call it the neediness paradox that dives. Like let’s say, you really want to build a relationship with someone or you really want to date with someone you want to do much you can almost repel the person because they can feel the neediness. Yeah, where this product as you’re talking about, it creates gratitude is experiencing, it creates a certain non-attachment. Interesting, the subtle shift, but I you can

Russ Ruffino 1:15:41

and that’s a great example. Because you can really see this, like in the world of dating and relationships, right? So like, even if you’re not an entrepreneur, it’s like, oh, man, like you, you, you. So here’s the thing, you have to know what you want, you have to be grateful for and in advance, you have to act as if you already have it. And you have to never, ever settle. Never settle for less. When you’re in a situation with someone where you’ve been visualizing, like, Oh, you know, this amazing person in your life or whatever. And then you’re on that date. And you’re kind of just like, yeah, they’re, they’re, you know, they’re attractive, they’re pretty cool, they’re smart, you know, I could end up hooking up with this person. And then before you know it, you’re hooking up all the time, and then before you know it, you’re in a relationship is not really what you want. And you’re sure this isn’t right. It’s like, don’t do that. Like, if the person is not the right person, you know, then then cool, but but don’t, you know, you just have to not care. It’s like, I know that, that the person that I want is going to come into my life, so I’m not going to settle for anything less. And this is why, you know, you bring up the secret. The first part of this is the easy part. And that’s the part they emphasize in the secret, right? The first part of just making a vision board or, or whatever, that’s the fun stuff. I mean, anyone can do that. And it feels good when you do it, right. But it’s this other stuff I’m talking about, like making those tough decisions as if you already have that thing that’s tough, and not settling for anything less than what you actually want. That’s even more tough. So that’s the part that separates the the the women from the little girls, that’s the part that separates the men from the boys is your ability to do that. It’s that bold action. It’s uh, you know, Caesar crossing the Rubicon. It’s, it’s Alexander the Great going to see the Oracle at Delphi to say, Hey, I’m thinking about going on this, this big campaign of conquest. And the Oracle says she’s busy and she can’t see him. So he runs in there and drags her out by her hair. And it’s like, tell me if this is gonna work or not. And she goes, my Lord, you’re invincible. And then he’s like, that’s all he needed to hear. And then he goes, You know what I mean? Like, like, there’s this kind of element of bold insanity. That that it’s, it’s, it’s irrational, and it doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t make sense that Elon Musk can say, Hey, I’m going to start a company, we’re going to send rockets into space, and we’re gonna land them back on the earth, even though NASA has never done that once. That’s nuts. You know, but he, he was like, This is what I’m gonna do. And he did it. You know what I mean? Like, like that, that that actually taking the action is the part that just that just kills people. Um, you know, my favorite poem is, is “The Hollow Men” by T.S. Eliot. And one of the things he says in that poem is, is between the whole poem is about like, you’re you’re you’re in the afterworld. And there’s these these like horrible like stuffed, hollow men, like scarecrows that are just empty inside and they’re they’re there. They’re like rotting inside because they never did the stuff that they wanted to do with their lives. They went with the flow, they said what they were what everybody wanted them to say they did what everybody wanted them to do. And so they’re hollow and they’re empty. And in the end it towards the end of the poem, he says, between the motion and the act, falls, the shadow between the creation and the conception, all is the shadow. And that what that means is that before, like you have this idea, and the moment you have this idea, that’s a big idea. The Shadow comes crashing down that shadow of fear. And it can paralyze you and stop you between emotion and the act, falls, the shadow. And it’s like are what are you going to do when that happens? Are you going to stay inside your comfort zone? Or are you going to step through it? And what’s really haunting about this poem, Michael is the poem is like a very vivid picture of what happens when you don’t do it when you allow the shadow to fall. And that’s that, in the last lines of the poem is he says, this is the way the world ends. This is the way the world ends. This is the way the world ends, not with a bang, but with a whimper.

Michael Simmons 1:19:23

I’ve heard that last line before but right at the beginning it puts it that’s what it’s right.

Russ Ruffino 1:19:27

That’s what it’s because yeah, I read the poems I’ve heard that but now I knew what it meant. Because we saying is that the way the world ends, the way the world falls apart, is not because you took some giant bold action. It’s because you did nothing when you knew you should have done something. Now think that’s the part that people don’t that’s the reason why you can watch something like the secret and people make fun of it because nobody ever got anywhere because nobody ever freaking did anything.

Michael Simmons 1:19:54

so fascinating. The miners they as you’re talking, I just had those that moment where Different areas, it could be like, dude, I am picking fall. Like, it’s like, it’s weird because it’s hidden from you. I feel like I am setting goals and things like that. As you’re talking, I’m like, it just came their emotion. I could feel it, though. It’s just interesting how that data passed down. Because you don’t, something invisible almost stopping you. One question I was gonna ask you about is related to this, the first step is, know what you want. That’s actually a really hard thing, because there’s this idea of, you know, mimetic desire that so many of our desires come from people or the cultures we’re around. Uh huh. Now, you’ve had, you’ve already gotten a lot of the material things that most people could want, and no having a 40,000 square foot house that have it.

Russ Ruffino 1:20:48

Yeah, that would be too big. I was like, what, what

are you gonna do?

I get lost, I’ll try to try to find the kitchen and I’ll starve to death. And they’ll find a little skeleton of me. Because I couldn’t get I couldn’t find the kitchen. I couldn’t get a sandwich.

Michael Simmons 1:20:57

Yeah, I got lost. Yeah. So how do you think about that now, think about what really matters, that what’s worth putting the time every day and visualizing at

Russ Ruffino 1:21:07

will, it just becomes about playing the game. And that’s the weirdest thing for me, is that once you’re making a certain amount of money, you know, like, if I if I if my company was doing $100 million a year, my lifestyle really wouldn’t change all that much. You know, maybe I could I could buy a plane or buy a boat or something, you know, but it’s like, you can rent those things now. So why would you? Why would you need to buy one, it’s like, Who cares? You know. So my lifestyle itself really wouldn’t change. So it’s not about that, though. It’s about it becomes about playing the game at the highest level, like, we have a business that is changing people’s lives every single day. And our clients will be the first one to tell you, you know, my clients tell me all the time, Russ, you’ve saved my life. Russ, you saved my marriage. And we don’t have a health coaching program, or we don’t have a relationship coaching program. But when we showed some of those calls, I yeah, thing that I actually

Michael Simmons 1:21:59

we worked together when I had an agency helping with content. And then we actually, I learned so much from doing that and applied and got results that I then signed up for another of your high ticket programs. Yeah, amazing benefit from it. But on the calls. I mean, you really hear like

Russ Ruffino 1:22:16

The celebrations are nuts,

Michael Simmons 1:22:18

and like, crying like I mean, I could have been transformative.

Russ Ruffino 1:22:24

Yeah. And it’s like, and it’s, it’s like, Okay, fine. So that’s what we’re doing. Right? That’s the impact that we’re making. We’re having fun making it. Who am I to say, we’re gonna stop here? You know, like, Who the hell am I to say, well, we’re gonna, we’re gonna get to 15 million a year, and then we’re going to, then we’re going to call it you know what I mean? It’s like, it’s like, I wouldn’t be me. If I just, if I said that. I’m like, Look, if we can push 200 million, let’s push 200 million. And if we get to a point where we’re doing 100 million a year, and I feel like it’s gotten too difficult for us to maintain the quality, or that quality isn’t going up and up, then maybe that’s the point where I’ll say, Okay, this is about as big as this thing can get. But at that point, we haven’t hit that yet. And I’m, you know, I’m 41 I’m young, I’m healthy. I have a five-year-old, a three-year-old, a one-year-old and one on the way. So my kids are so small, I’m not going anywhere. You know,

I can’t do

this. I got three now and three boys. And then we have a girl on the way.

Michael Simmons 1:23:25

Okay, awesome.

Russ Ruffino 1:23:27

So but my point is, like, when you have kids that small, like you’re not going anywhere, dude, I mean, let’s be honest. So I’m like, Alright, look, I might as well just put my head down and work. And if it ever turns into a thing where I get sick of it, or I don’t enjoy it any more than whatever, I’ll you know, I’ll figure out what to do then. But I’m having I’m having the time of my life doing this. This is what we’re meant to do. There’s a there’s a, there’s a role that only you can fill. there’s a there’s a mission that only you can fulfil, um, you know, if you think about Aristotle, Aristotle has this whole idea about like the, the divine idea of something or like the idea of something where basically, like, let’s say, you’d never seen a perfect triangle, you could still have an idea in your mind of what a perfect triangle looks like, if you never saw a perfect circle, you could have an idea in your mind of what the perfect circle looks like. And when you have an idea what a perfect circle looks like, you can judge every other circle according to like how close it is to that idea in your head. I think that God has a divine idea of Michael’s life, of Russ’s life. And when you open yourself up to that, and you’re grateful for that in advance, you allow more and more of that into your life. And I really feel like nothing is too good to be true. Nothing is too good to last. Nothing is too wonderful to happen. If we open ourselves up to this, it’s just it’s right there. You know when you’re when you’re when I became a dad, it was like, I love these kids so much, that I just I want the best for them of everything. And I feel like that’s how God feels about us, but times times a billion, where that conception or idea of your life is so far beyond anything you could possibly imagine. And so like whether you believe in God or not, that’s just the way that I conceptualize it, you can certainly accept that there’s this idea of the best life you could possibly be living. And that’s what you want to pursue. Because if you’re not going to pursue that, what the hell are we doing here?

Michael Simmons 1:25:21

Yeah, it’s really interesting to you’re mentioning, we can end on this is, you know, there’s this really fascinating researcher named Daniel P. Brown, he was at Harvard. And so a lot of one of the big things down is also as a therapist, that’s nice people have attachment disorders. Yeah, many people do growing up. And one of the exercises that works best, actually, the number one intervention, is you go back to the moments where you felt unloved, as a child. And you imagine your ideal parents treating you as you want as you wish you could have been treated. And so just creating that idea transforms people. So you do that for 10 minutes, 40 times or something. And there are people’s attachment styles, actually, yeah. When you were talking about God there, what do you believe in? Even God or not, or however you believe in it? By having that, that idea of wanting better for you that you can even imagine? Wow, that’s, that’s amazing.

Russ Ruffino 1:26:20

It’s, it’s an amazing thing. I mean, that, that, just just stepping into the belief that, that you were meant for more and that you deserve more, and then that God and everything in the universe wants you to have more and be more, if you’re willing to accept that is just such a, like, radical shift for most people. But I think that’s the way of success. You know, even if you look at somebody that doesn’t, you know, I don’t know what Elon Musk’s spiritual beliefs are right. But at some point in his thinking, he must have gone. Yeah, I’m gonna, you know, start this space company is probably not gonna work out, but Screw it, I’ll give it a shot. And I think I can maybe, you know, well, I’ll give it a shot. It’s worth doing. You know, just, that’s insane. You have to have that, like that belief that that transcends the circumstances that you were born in, that you were meant for more and that you deserve more. And, and yes, there’s responsibility that goes along with that you want to do a good job for people and take care of people and make the world a better place. But But you have to accept that you know, that you have a destiny, and you have to do what it takes to get there.

Michael Simmons 1:27:23

Finally, rough working people, they want to learn more about you, your you and your program. Are you on different channels, where should they do that.

Russ Ruffino 1:27:31

So the simplest thing they could do is just book a call with our team, the link to do that as clientsondemand.com/talk. And we’ll get on the phone for about 45 minutes. And you can tell us everything that’s going on in your business where you are stuck where you want to be. And we’ll put our heads together and come up with a really great game plan to get you where you want to be. So that’s totally free. It’s clientsondemand.com/talk to book that appointment. That’s the best way to get started with us. If you want to check out some of our webinars and some of the other trainings that we’ve done, you can just go to clientsondemand.com And there’s a bunch of resources there that you can check out too.

Michael Simmons 1:28:02

And for people who want to know what Clients on Demand is just so they can learn whether Yeah, or whether it’s right for them. You just give a quick overview.

Russ Ruffino 1:28:10

Sure. Yeah, so so what we do in our programs is we we teach our clients, how to attract their ideal clients at the price that they want 5000 8000 $10,000 or more. And we teach a full marketing system that allows people to take someone from clicking on an ad to becoming a client at 5000 or 8000, or $10,000, within like 24 hours, even if they’ve never heard of you. So it’s a really, really powerful marketing system. You don’t have to have a lot of followers. You don’t have to have any followers. You don’t even have to have a website, honestly, you just have to have the skill. So you have to have like expertise, you have to be able to solve a major life or business challenge. And if you can do that, we’ll show you the same system that we use to scale our business to $15 million a year. It’s the same system and we’ll show you how to do it step by step and like I said before, with all the hand-holding and coaching and everything else that goes with it, you can actually get the result.

Michael Simmons 1:29:01

Beautiful Russ, thank you so much.

Russ Ruffino 1:29:03

You got it, man. It’s my pleasure.

This is great.

Outro 1:29:09

How to Craft Your Story and Make it Stand Out with Charlie Hoehn

May 26, 2021 // by michaeld // Podcast // No Comments

Charlie Hoehn is a top keynote speaker, author, and Head of Video at Scribe Media. He has been a TEDx speaker four times and was a keynote speaker at the Pentagon, U.S. military bases, Microsoft, and international universities. Charlie is also the Author of several self-published books, including Play It Away: A Workaholic’s Cure for Anxiety and Recession Proof Graduate.

At Scribe Media, Charlie works with top authors and entrepreneurs to produce their success stories. He has shot, edited, and published over 500 videos to Scribe’s Youtube channel.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

Charlie Hoehn describes his work with blockbuster writer David Goggins.
Being relentlessly honest when writing your story and capturing the cultural zeitgeist.
Charlie shares some top marketing tips for your book: utilize your own unique take.
How do you get readers to talk about your book?
Balancing emotionally-driven writing and analytics-driven writing.
Charlie talks about the subject of his book, Play It Away: A Workaholic’s Cure for Anxiety.
The boldness of experimentation.
The lessons Charlie has learned in book publishing and content creation.
Every great story falls into the “hero’s journey” story structure.
Using social media to become the hero of your own life.
Owning your journey and becoming a thought leader.

In this episode…

What does it take to become a blockbuster writer? How do you make your story stand out, and how do you get people to talk about it?

Charlie Hoehn knows what it takes to create a great story. He has worked with top authors in successfully producing their stories and has self-published his own books, Play It Away and Recession Proof Graduate. And according to Charlie, the best writers are relentlessly honest with themselves and their readers.

In this episode of The Michael Simmons Show, host Michael Simmons sits down with Charlie Hoehn, author and Head of Video at Scribe Media. Charlie shares his own experience of writing, publishing, and helping produce stories for top authors and entrepreneurs. From story structure and marketing to reader engagement, Charlie’s expert tips can help you become a thought leader and successfully share your story. Stay tuned.

Resources Mentioned in this episode

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by my company, Seminal.

We help you create blockbuster content that rises above the noise, changes the world, and builds your business.

To learn about creating blockbuster content, read my article: Blockbuster: The #1 Mental Model For Writers Who Want To Create High-Quality, Viral Content

Episode Transcript

Intro 0:02

Michael Simmons 0:14

Today, I have Charlie Hoehn. If you’re interested in writing a book, then this podcast is a must-listen. He has been the right hand person that has helped people like Tim Ferriss, Gary Vee, and Tucker Max, each of who who have sold millions of copies. He’s helped them produce their books. And he’s also produced two of his own very successful books. And he currently is a senior executive at Scribe, and Scribe has helped over 800 thought leaders and coaches and entrepreneurs produce books. So he knows a thing or two about what it takes to create a blockbuster book. And that’s exactly what I want to talk with him about today. In our podcast, we went deep on the three principles that he’s really narrowed down as the patterns that you need, if you want to write a best selling blockbuster book that impacts millions of people and changes their lives. So without further ado, I give you Charlie. All right, Charlie, welcome to the podcast.

Charlie Hoehn 1:26

Thanks for having me, Michael. Congratulations on having a podcast.

Michael Simmons 1:31

Thank you. Thank you. I really looking forward to this just I admire who you are as a person. And specifically within thought leadership, you’ve worked with many of the top writers and book writers of our time, people like Tim Ferriss, Tucker, Max, Gary Vee, and others. And also through scribe, were your head of video there. And it’s a book production company. You’ve Scribe has published over 800 bucks. And so I was just curious, what do you see as what it takes to be a blockbuster writer, not just to be a published author, but to be someone, one of those rare individuals who really breaks through the noise and changes the conversation?

Charlie Hoehn 2:18

I love this question, because I’ve done a few pieces on this because I’ve wanted to dissect and figure out that exact answer. So there’s not a clear cut, very obvious thing. It’s more along the lines of do they tend to meet these certain criteria. So an example would be David Goggins, can’t hurt me, who wrote a memoir, he was offered to traditionally publish, he didn’t like the deal for my understanding, and decided to self publish, and everybody told him Don’t go the self publishing route. But he sold millions of copies. And he was the number two best selling memoir behind Michelle Obama in the first year. So that was when Yeah, so when I looked at his particular journey, as a successful mega blockbuster author, I noticed some things about him. Three, three, in particular, that I think applies to pretty much any author. Number one is to become the book, to be the embodiment of the book, I think it was Naval Ravikant, the founder of Angelist, to had this quote that was like, in order to write a great book, you must first become the book. And I think a lot of authors have this tendency, it’s a human tendency. I don’t, I don’t criticize but we have this tendency to pretend basically, that we’re somebody that we’re not right, one day, you see this on Instagram, every now and then

Michael Simmons 4:04

we’re like, every now and then it’s that’s normal month.

Charlie Hoehn 4:08

Yeah. It’s like, all of a sudden, this guy is posting his own quotes of himself on how to like, change your life. And it’s like, dude, you know, it wasn’t that long ago, where you were binge drinking and, you know, crying in a corner at a party or whatever, you know. So, and I think we’re all guilty of this on some level, right? We want to elevate our status to something else. And so we try on the, this posturing of what we believe a thought leader might look like with David Goggins case, he quite literally is his story can’t hurt me. He started off as a 300 pound overweight exterminator who hated his job wasn’t progress.

Michael Simmons 4:57

To clarify,

Charlie Hoehn 4:57

yeah, bug exterminator and And he didn’t like who he was. And then he saw a commercial for the navy seals, he started training himself going on 100 mile runs, even though he was, you know, overweight, it was a very slow progression for him with a lot of failures along the way of him becoming a navy seal, and then becoming an ultra endurance athlete, and then literally earning the title of the toughest man alive. Right. And so he was the book before he decided to write the book. So I think you become the person you need to become first before you say, I’m gonna go write a book and tell other people how to live their lives, like no one likes, the advice on how to live their life, unless it’s coming from a person who’s like, Look, I had the exact problem that you had, I get it. I totally appreciate it. And so I know exactly what you’re going through. Here’s what I did. here’s, here’s my recipe.

Michael Simmons 6:08

So one question for you there is, you know, you mentioned David Goggins or even Tim Ferriss, they’re being themselves but they’re also their stories are very extreme, you know, you know, Tim found a way to do, you know, stop something, you’re doing 80 to 100 hours a week, and then do for our work, we travel, the country then became like, the salsa champion. And so it can feel I feel this, like, I feel like I’ve done interesting things, but then I’m like, well, not that interesting. Like, it’s, and then it’s like, Well, okay, what, what can I do with become the book, like, don’t have to be more interesting, but then that’s not authentic. So So I think,

Charlie Hoehn 6:47

yeah, I think it has to be really deeply, intrinsically motivated. So I don’t think you need to go off and become this wildly exceptional, remarkable person, I think you just need to solve a need or a problem that you genuinely have, and then share your recipe. That’s really it doesn’t have to be far beyond that. I’ll give you a good example. So I’m, I’m a videographer, a filmmaker. And I’ve taken a number of courses, watched countless YouTube videos on how to set up shots and compose shots. And there was the I, I’ve paid $1,000 for an online course just to learn stuff along these lines. And over and over, they wouldn’t do that good of a job giving a clear recipe. And I was never really impressed with the outcomes even when I was following their directions. So I was always frustrated. And then very recently stumbled upon a course by a guy named Kevin Shen. He, it’s a course called Dream Studio, I believe it’s 300 bucks. I have no affiliation with it. By the way. I was blown away. This guy really knows his stuff on designing a beautiful studio. And he walks you through it step by step by step. And it’s like, that’s not this wildly interesting thing. Right? It’s it. To me, it’s a very specific problem and pain point that I’ve struggled with for years, and have continually search for good answers. And I finally stumbled across the best one I’ve seen without, you know, working and going to film school or becoming somebody in Hollywood, cinematographers. So I think it needs to stem from a specific need that you have, and that a lot of other people have, if we’re talking about blockbusters, right, do millions of people have this need? And if not millions of people, okay, let’s say 10,000 habit, which is a more realistic starting point, can you give them the best possible recipe to solve that problem?

Michael Simmons 9:08

So I like that, is that number two? Are you feel like that’s part of

Charlie Hoehn 9:11

No, it’s just it’s part of the equation though. So number two, is really to tell the whole truth, especially when it comes to memoirs is only you know, I wrote my book, Play It Away. Several years ago, I published it. And it was a pretty raw account of this debilitating period of anxiety that I went through for about two years. My mental health was shot. It was totally taxed. And I originally published that as a blog post that it went viral. And so I did So to write a book with that,

Michael Simmons 10:01

how viral did it go?

Charlie Hoehn 10:03

It was it went on WordPress WordPress homepage like WordPress featured it. And then that boosted its SEO up to the number one search result when you googled the anxiety cure anywhere in the world for that was for about four years. And so at one point, I think I can’t remember to be honest, it was a while it got knocked off a while ago, but it was it was doing significant traffic. And so I wrote the book and the one comment or review, I can’t remember who wrote it. But the the one review that really stuck stuck with me was I wish the author had told the whole truth. I wish she’d gone deeper. I’m just in a haunted me because it’s, it’s true. I went about 95% as deep as I could, in revealing the truth. But I think that the book by all all objective measures, did really well, it was a homerun. But I think what could have taken it really to the next level, is if I told the whole truth, and if you read can’t hurt me by David Goggins man, he tells the whole truth, unquestionably. And it’s very clear, he did not hold back. And I think, if you want to write something, you can do stuff that has mass appeal, for sure. And never reveal really anything about yourself. I mean, Malcolm Gladwell, you brought up earlier, I think he’s a good example. What do you know about Malcolm Gladwell, his personal life? effectively? Nothing,

Michael Simmons 11:57

right? Yeah, nothing.

Charlie Hoehn 11:58

Yeah. But he’s a professional writer who knows how to make these things really interesting and compelling. I think if you’re if you’re writing a memoir, anything with some personal element to it, you really have to be relentlessly honest. And that includes the most painful and difficult shortcomings that you faced. The ugliness that you face. If you look at any memoir, that does exceptionally well, there is a lot of ugliness in there that was deeply painful and terrifying for the author to reveal. And they did it anyway. There’s no guarantee, right? That if you share the whole truth, then your books gonna blow up or your writing is going to blow up. But it certainly gives you a really good chance when when you put your heart on the table, so to speak. Yeah.

Michael Simmons 12:56

How do you think about that with him? Because I feel like his book, The Four Hour Workweek, he kind of took a very authoritative tone. And he wasn’t telling the whole truth at that time. And over time, though, he has really opened up. But the book did really well, without that. So you’re kind of saying that this is a key thing that can really help. But yeah, that’s always there. If it’s not, especially if it’s not a memoir,

Charlie Hoehn 13:20

right? Yeah, so I’m focusing particularly on Goggins, but I’ll widen the lens a bit for authors like Tim. So with Tim, I think there was a cultural Zeitgeist that he really hit really well. So if you look at some of the top movies at the time, office, space, American Beauty, Fight Club, they all have the same theme. The hero hates their stupid corporate job, and finds ways to leave it and rebel.

Michael Simmons 13:52

Right. Or Eat Pray Love?

Charlie Hoehn 13:55

Eat Pray Love? Yes. So we, there was this collective hundreds of millions of people in the world hating their corporate job and feeling spiritually stifled and wondering how they could escape the rat race. And that was the first phrase in the subtitle of that book. The Four Hour Workweek is escape the rat race. Join the new rich, and, man, I can’t remember. In any case, I think Tim really hit the crest of the wave. As as that was coming out. And another book that did that, fairly recently, I believe was Mark Manson’s book right The Subtle Art of Not Giving an F. And it was like, Man, you have suddenly a billion plus people who feel just kind of exhausted by social media and constantly caring about these micro social transactions happening. hundreds of times a day, it was exhausting. And he came in with a book with a really great title and made it cool to kind of showcase like, Hey, I’m going to work on opting out of that he basically combined, it’s like Buddhists, for millennials and Gen Z. Yeah, who are exhausted by social media. So, um, but you know, that’s, that’s one of many, many components. And by the way, to anybody who’s listening, I wrote a post called How to Sell a Million Copies of Your Nonfiction Book on charliehoehn.com And it’s a really thorough article on like, these are kind of the broad categories, I see that really popular writing tends to fall into in the more of these things that they check off the box. Whether it’s, you know, Marie Kondo has the magic, Life Changing Magic of Tidying Up that kind of book, the more they check off that box, the better the book tends to do.

Michael Simmons 16:08

And so one, and also just so people know, HOEHN. Charlie HOEHN. One question I have for you. What you said about capturing this is really interesting, because you see in the startup world, Bill Gross, the founder of Idealab, one of the largest incubators did this whole presentation, where they went back and looked at all their successful companies. And they looked at it as the founder team, is it you know, who they went to, for venture capital? Is that the idea. And ultimately, they found that the key thing was timing. And there’s also their famous quote about there’s nothing stopping a great idea whose time has come something like that. So, but it’s also really hard to do that. Remember, Elizabeth Gilbert from Eat Pray Love. After that came out? She was talking about how much anxiety she felt that she could never make the next book bigger than the other one, it’s gonna be hard for her to capture that zeitgeist. Is there anything? Any way to make it non random in your mind to really capture the Zeitgeist at the crest of the wave?

Charlie Hoehn 17:12

Gosh, I, I’m not entirely sure. And I do wish I was more into data and stats and like monitoring those types of things. So I could see the trends coming more clearly, there are times when, like, I mean, I’ve, I’ve invested in Tesla for a couple of years. But it was because it was like, I see a clear singularity happening where all these technology technologies are getting cheaper and cheaper, and they’re synergizing. And so it’s like, to me that that made sense. But in terms of like writing and books and stuff, I think there’s there’s only really, I’m not the type of writer who can go out and like, hey, there’s this trend that seems to be building, maybe I’ll give that a shot. It’s like, I tend to do best when I’m a geek about something that a lot of people don’t know about yet. And I can evangelize it. So an example is like, psycho psychoactive therapy using plant medicine or psychedelics in order to to heal from trauma. I’m a huge advocate of that. I learned about it when I was speaking for the military or speaking at military bases and learning about Wow, this is by far the most effective This is the penicillin for trauma in the soul. Wow. And it was such a fringe thing. And it’s still like, I remember speaking to a group about it, and they were like, wait, so like, isn’t that the party drug? And I was like, oh, man, people. People really have no idea what’s

Michael Simmons 18:58

interesting, sometimes when you jump cultures, but it’s weird when something so obvious, and everyone knows about it, and then no one’s even heard of it.

Charlie Hoehn 19:05

Right? Yeah. And you feel like an alien in the room. And yeah, its distribution has not reached the masses. So I and I know, Tim, Tim is a great example of somebody who’s like, you know, he knows that stuff is coming. So he’s aggressively positioning himself to be one of the people who’s who can have some influence in that area. Yeah, yeah.

Michael Simmons 19:35

I remember with Cal Newport, you know, followed his journey since he was in college. And he was writing the book and talking about the book and then when he switched to social media, and even when he started it, him knowing that it’s not the biggest thing, but it’s one of those topics that’s gonna become bigger and bigger over time. And it’s amazing to actually watch that happen to the idea is gonna become more and more relevant over time. Do you invest in it?

Charlie Hoehn 19:57

Yeah, yeah. And I think you just you really Do you have to care? Right? It’s like, if social media for example, let’s say that plateaus, I have no idea what the stats are in the rate of growth anymore, it might have plateaued, I have no idea. But let’s say that plateaus and starts to decline even because it’s being replaced by something superior new. People will still be using it and caring about it. If you come out with something good and unique. That is somewhat novel and useful. You still have a really good shot. So I don’t I don’t necessarily think it’s, it is useful to always try to time the site, guys. I think it’s much easier to like, The Four Hour Chef, that’s a book that Tim did that did quite well, how long have cookbooks been going? Right? Yeah, he just brought his own unique novel take. And that’s, that’s another really important marketing element I always try to think about is like, the way our brains are structured are, as soon as we know, we think we know the answer to something we tap out. It’s like, it’s not interesting. We need to have some sort of novelty or uniqueness or discrepancy that we need to figure out why there’s Yeah, why is that the case? Which is why you see a lot of headlines with how I did such and such without doing nothing that everybody assumes you need to do more, and it’s

Michael Simmons 21:35

not what you think that’s right, right.

Charlie Hoehn 21:37

Yeah. So yeah, the, the novelty factor is equally important if you can’t get timing, right. So I did want to add one more, one more thing, or complete the train of thought. The third big thing I saw with David Goggins book is that he made readers into champions of his message of his message. So what I mean by that is, they applied part of his recipe, or his full recipe to their life, and they got clear, big results that they couldn’t help but want to talk about, right. So

Michael Simmons 22:23

I like that,

Charlie Hoehn 22:24

like it with physical fitness people. So I saw this firsthand working with Tim on The Four Hour Body, we would see before after pictures of people after they did his diet, and they would lose a ton of weight, or they would get off of glucose, mad surgery, you know, they had these big results with people in David’s book, they became like Greek gods, you know, when they applied some of the stuff that he was telling them to do, or, or they would simply want to, you know, post on Instagram or something like, Look, I read this awesome book, and I’m now doing this exercise that the toughest man in the world says that he does. And so it Wim Hof is a great example of this. I love his stuff. Because I mean, you you want to tell people you’re you know, you take cold showers or you go in cold bodies of water, you do this weird breathing exercise or whatever. So if it can be something that you’re proud to show others, and you want to talk about with others, it can really, really spread quickly. And so if making readers champions of your message, if they can have some clear transformation that they can’t help but talk about with others, your your writing is going to do great.

Michael Simmons 23:50

Yeah, it’s so interesting. You know, one thing I’m listening from two perspectives, you’re one of the one is when I think about my own writing, I think about optimizing for the kid in the candy store effect. That what are the things I’m so excited about? Like I can’t help but not do it? Like I’m like waking up early, just out of excitement to work on it versus willpower. And then there’s a part of me that’s very analytical where I’m just like, okay, your big results What can I like what is the biggest thing I could do based off that instead I like reverse engineering. And you know, that can come across taken too far as inauthentic because you’re like doing things because that’s what’s gonna get the biggest back and how do you think about balancing those two things the internal and the external?

Charlie Hoehn 24:35

You know, I I’m a firm believer and in Category A but I am like you Michael, where I find myself falling into the trap of like, let’s dive down the analytics and like let’s tweak this to optimize and it’s like, that stuff, I think, can work if you are an engineering type mind but I’m more emotionally driven. And I have found over and over and over and over, when I write from that place of deep emotion, whether it’s deep excitement, deep pain, deep love, my writing blows up. And so what a great example of this, I had no intention of this blowing up. And I because I had written about the topic for two and a half years before it blew up. The topic I was writing about was, how does play affect mental health? In what happens when you deprive mammals of play, and their emotional health goes off a cliff. And what happens when you reintroduce play to mammals, whether it’s children or adults, mental health gets great like recovers very quickly. So I’d written about that from all these different angles and explored it. And not much have taken off except my own personal story and how it helped. And so nothing really hit and then the Vegas shooting happened, which at the time, and I still think it might be the deadliest shooting in the United States, it was really shocking. And horrifying, this dude in in the Mandalay Bay hotel, just shooting into a crowd of people. And I remember at the time watching, you know, people talk about it on YouTube, and I watched this video of Jimmy Kimmel talking about it. And he got really emotional, he started crying when he was talking about it. And he said, Why do people do this? I guess we’ll never know. And it was at that moment, I got mad that he said that, because I’d studied why people did mass shootings. Interesting. Dr. Stuart Brown studied Charles Whitman, the guy who did the Texas tower shooting. And he started studying serial killers after that. And he found consistently, that they had a childhood that was chronically deprived and suppressed of play, like true play. And when that happens to men, not always, obviously, but it has a severe impact, it’s socially handicaps them. And they tend to act out in aggressive ways, either toward themselves or toward others. And so this is a gross oversimplification of all the theories. So don’t just take it at face value of what I’m saying. But I, I sat down that night, and I wrote an impassioned article about why men do this. And I started that article with, I’ll never forget. Columbine, when I was a kid. That was 10 minutes away from where I grew up. And my mom knew the teachers that died and the Columbine shooting, and and she was friends with him and all this stuff. And then I segwayed into Jimmy Kimmel’s, what he said, and then I wrote, but you know, from my perspective, like, this is why I believe based on the research I’ve done, why men do these things, why they the the, it’s not always the case. But these are some foundational things. And that article was read by 3 million people in one week, and on your personal blog, on medium. And it totally shocked me. Because, again, I’ve been writing about it for years. But it was, number one. Suddenly, millions of people were paying attention to this topic and searching for answers, and were fed up with this problem. Number two, I had a completely unique novel take, I wasn’t blaming guns, I wasn’t blaming politicians or media, I was saying, we fundamentally neglect our boys in our men’s emotional health throughout their lives and expect them to not act out. And that is a systemic problem, a systemic failure in our society. And

that was my argument. And I actually got emailed by a lot of people, but one in particular was the daughter of the teacher who died in Columbine. Wow, who was a violence therapist. And she said, thank you so much for writing this. This is exactly on point. And so it was this really incredible experience. But to to your original point, I came at it from kid in the candy store is the wrong analogy for that situation. But I came at it from a place of deep, deep emotion. And human beings are deep emotional creatures. We’re not rational, we’re driven by emotion first.

Michael Simmons 30:17

Wow. Fascinating on multiple levels, I feel like it’s a really interesting time of work. It’s just in the last 20 years that anybody could publish whatever they’re thinking publicly, and that those thoughts could then spread to 3 million people, it’s just even hard to stadiums and stadiums full of people and then resonate and hit parts of their brain as well. It’s just a weird, weird thing.

Charlie Hoehn 30:43

It was in not to cut you off, but I’ll never forget, like, there. I was seeing Facebook videos of people who’d printed off the article, and we’re reading it on video for 20. You know, it’s like a 15 minute read. And it was just crazy. You know? Like, that doesn’t happen. Right. But it was, it was such an emotionally charged, huge event. That, that it, it was it was new, it was a new take on something that people had been talking about for a long time.

Michael Simmons 31:25

There are certain, you know, I always think that authenticity is an interesting idea here, because I personally feel like it’s a confusing word, because we’re never fully sharing everything. Even when you share the full story. It’s like we shared everything would just be boring, because it’s like, you’re just seeing, like, what’s my background and like, the most of it’s not interesting. So there’s always an active selection here. And I guess one thing is, when I’m picking books to read, I always look for rare and valuable books. And part of me is looking for books that other people aren’t reading, that I’m also interested in, of course, because if I’m reading just the latest bestsellers, that I’m gonna have the same ideas as everyone else. And also I there’s a certain element of intrinsic, I feel it’s good to have a unique perspective that is valuable to others. Like, I feel like I can add more value. And I think what strikes me too, is that there’s an ally just doing that for books. But there’s also doing that with experiences as well, is almost giving oneself permission to do. So it’s you talked about, you know, fulfilling a problem that you’re facing, you know, or dealing with it but giving yourself permission to be really bold and experimental, I feel like is a combination of it’s like it’s solving the problem, but it’s in a bold and experimental way where most people will just put up with a problem or do small changes. Is there while still being authentic? Do you feel like there’s something else there about the boldness, of experimentation? And

Charlie Hoehn 33:00

yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s either got to be a, I, when I look back on, like, arriving at the solution of play really saved my mental health more than anything else. It wasn’t from a place of I’m having so I’m enjoying and being bold in my experimentation, it was like, I am desperate to solve this problem, or I think I might die. And I have found with with other authors, Yeah, totally. They can be driven by like excitement, kid in the candy store passion? Absolutely. I have found for the things that I really stick with. It is it’s driving me nuts. That this that the solutions, the conventional wisdom is garbage. And it’s not leading me to the result. And so think about like, you know, Tim wrote The Four Hour Body, that book has kidney candy store energy all over it. You know, he’s a geek about body stuff. And he loves that topic. For me. My first book that I wrote was Recession Proof Graduate, and I wrote it because the conventional job hunting wisdom was terrible, and it didn’t work in a recession. Like, send out your resume to a bunch of people do cover letters, like he nailed these questions in an interview. Guess what? None of it worked. I tried it for months. And so when I started offering free work and doing free work for entrepreneurs and startups and companies that I actually wanted to work for, and got a dream job after dream job after dream, like multiple dream jobs in a row. Like I have not seen this in a book anywhere. I did this out of desperation and frustration. That all of the Conventional wisdom was terrible. And I had to start from scratch out of desperation.

Michael Simmons 35:06

Yeah. So

Charlie Hoehn 35:08

I only stuck with that problem because I had my back against the wall. And, you know, it’s got to be a problem that you care deeply about. And if you don’t, you’ll abandon it.

Michael Simmons 35:23

Have you abandoned books yourself? Where you started? You thought there was a problem? And then you part of the way through just like this not big enough? Or I’m not, I don’t really care about the solution here.

Charlie Hoehn 35:33

Yeah. So I have totally done that. I love that question. It’s, it’s like it. It’s interesting with books, because you think that, oh, I can, I can just write that book a few years from now. It’s actually not true. So I tried to write free work, you know, this bigger, more comprehensive book? Well, after I’d enter the job market, several years later, and I was like, this is going to be my definitive, like traditional publishing route, the book that’s going to be, you know, 250 pages. It was a mess. Like, structurally, I did not do a good job on that book. So it fell apart. But I also, you know, now that I’m saying it out loud, I kind of view that. And this bigger, I also did something similar with a play type of book, where I was like, I could write something that could reach an even broader audience that doesn’t necessarily have as much my story but more this compilation of here’s how play affects mental health and all these areas. In both of those books, I’d abandoned because it was like, no longer deeply cared about it. It was more just like, this academic exercise more than anything else in again, that can absolutely work for some people. And I would say, what made it academic for you? What

Michael Simmons 37:12

made you What made you lose something that you had at the beginning of project?

Charlie Hoehn 37:16

It was it was more like a school paper within it was this like thing rooted in purpose and pain, you know, solving pain? And so it’s, it’s kind of like, I’ve never thought about it until you ask that question, Michael. But it’s, it’s indicative of growth for, for me personally, where, if I’m over a topic, it’s time to move on, right? Something else, right. And so I tried to this was the trap I fell into with Play It Away, Play It Away, has sold over 20,000 copies, which by again, every objective marker that that is a great success for a book. Unfortunately, I run in a crowd of New York Times bestselling authors who sold millions of books. And so in my mind, I was like, man, Did I do something wrong here? Did I not do enough? And so I was always kind of like, well, maybe if I do this one thing, then it’ll, you know, it can take off even more. Or maybe I could pursue a documentary, maybe I could pursue corporate speaking. You know, all this stuff, you name it, I considered it, supplements, blah, blah, blah. And just over and over, it’s just kept fizzling out. And I believe it was because I grown out of it. You know, I put the book out there. That was enough. And instead, I kept trying to like, be double down on that, because it’s like, well, it works. Why won’t like maybe I’ll just get the flywheel going on that, but it never happened. And so I think it’s easier to simply say, Where am I at today? What journey Am I on? Now? What journey have I just completed, that I could share with millions of others who maybe struggled with what I just went through? So two examples, personal examples. I could sit down and write. Let’s say dream jobs on demand or free work or whatever. I don’t know if I would even want the fruits of that labor right now. But I could write a book on your first two years as a dad, which I just went through, right? What it’s like to find out, your wife is pregnant when you sure as shit weren’t ready. And how do you adjust how do you how do you make that transition work when when you’re scared and uncertain and doubting yourself, and then another book could definitely be my therapy journey where I started where I am today. And just as as showing people like, Hey, you know, not all hope is lost if you have felt stuck for several years in certain areas of your life. Hmm,

Michael Simmons 40:28

yeah, it’s, it’s fascinating. I think a lot about the what things mean historically and in the past, and then in the future. And, you know, I think about, let’s say, startups, that’s a field where a lot of people raise money, you commit to something you might be in this for five or 10 years. And this shows me that thought leadership is similar in some ways, because you can take something from your head. And if it really hits at no cost, it could scale across the globe and have a big impact. But it’s also different because it’s so much more personal. And so, you know, I feel like the startup mentality would be like, hey, you’ve got a foothold here. You have to stay focused. And if you’re drifting from topic to topic, you can’t have that in a team. You know, you can’t just go like, oh, the CEO wants to do this thing now. So it’s, it’s an interesting different mindset of

Charlie Hoehn 41:20

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it certainly the the upsides can be greater obviously, when you’re working in a team or on a tech startup or whatever, but I the personal growth that you can have from thought leadership, if you take it if you if you approach it thoughtfully, and and the right way, can be really tremendous. And priceless, even in so. Yeah, it’s, it’s a good point in. Yeah, I’m grateful for this conversation already, Michael, because I’ve never articulated a really piece together, how important it is to as a thought leader to really stay in the present with your own life and not be chasing past successes and trying to turn them into more. But really just where are you today? Who can you be a hero to where you were six months ago or a year ago. And just by sharing your story, it’s not that complicated, and eliminate the posturing and just share it. And the more I’ve done that, and just been honest, it surprises me how much people really appreciate that. It strikes me too,

Michael Simmons 42:55

that there’s an awareness. That is like, there’s one part living the life, let’s say, and having experiences. And then there’s another part, noticing, as you’re having those experiences and what your feelings are, you might great happiness, great sadness, and how those connect together. In a story. There’s a, there’s a level of meta awareness is there. How do you think about that part of it? For somebody for you, it’s natural, though, to be aware of things and your emotions, probably comes naturally, and then piece it together in a story. But for someone who’s never done that, it might feel like, Well, where do I even start? My life’s not interesting, or what does that mean?

Charlie Hoehn 43:37

Yeah, great question. So I say in the way I kind of interpret this question, Michael, is, how do I tell my story? Right? How do I do it if I don’t necessarily know what’s interesting and what’s not. And to me, it’s, there’s, there’s a couple markers. The first one I think that I lean on all the time is story structure. If you know story structure, that’s like 80% of the battle, right? And story structure is, if you’re the hero, if you’re the thought leader, it’s once upon a time, the hero was this, and every day the hero did this. So it’s once upon a time in every day, until one day this thing happened, this massive shift, this change happened that that caused the hero to uproot or to change how they viewed the world. And because of that, and because of that, and because of that, you do that a few times, until finally, some resolution is reached. And ever since that day, the new world has emerged, right? And so every great story falls in That story structure every hero’s journey, right? Harry Potter whether.

Michael Simmons 45:05

The way you phrase it. I’ve never heard it phrased that way.

Charlie Hoehn 45:07

Yeah, it’s Pixar’s formula. And so Pixar is, you know, arguably the best storytellers on the planet, right. And so every story falls into that. And I guarantee you, you’re listening to this, your story falls into that. And you were sent on some journey at some point where you face trials, you face crises, and you had to overcome these challenges. And until finally, you know, you slayed the dragon. And ever since that day, your life has been so and so. And so I think that really is 80% of the battle is establishing who the character is, what your everyday looks like, and ideally giving yourself some vulnerable trait, right. So I did, I did a video earlier this year on our Scribe CEO named JeVon McCormick, at the beginning of the video, I knew this video was gonna go viral. Because at the beginning of the video, the first line is shows it shows him kind of taking notes. And the first line is, this man was homeless when he was a student. The next shot, it shows him handing a book to somebody, he just signed his own book. And so his high school teacher came to see him speak. And at the beginning of that video, I establish the this, this entrepreneur grew up determined to be successful. But when he was a kid, he faced racism, he faced horrible abuse, and he was even homeless, he things got so bad, He even went to juvenile three times. And so I’m establishing hard that like, even though this guy is the hero of the story, he is human he is he’s been through pain, and he is vulnerable. And, you know, I show him as a kid. And so if you can do that with yourself, there’s there was a when I when I was writing Play It Away, this, this reader told me, you have to switch the first two chapters, and he was totally right, because if I kept chapter two is chapter one, I would have come across as this arrogant jerk in chapter two was the way it flowed originally, Michael was me talking about how I was in this, working in these high profile jobs in Silicon Valley. And I was, you know, burning, burning the midnight candle, and, or midnight oil, and, and just working and being successful in these launches. But boy, I was working really hard. And then chapter two, was me describing being in my own internal hell, in really going crazy and like really vividly, like, I’ll never forget, laying on the floor thinking I was dying, and having to go check myself into the hospital and how humiliating and terrifying that was at the same time and, and he was like, you got to flip those chapters gotta start with the vulnerability, it’s got to start with you being relatable, and human. And that’s the most important part of storytelling with characters is they have to be relatable, they have to, you have to identify with them in some way. The quicker you can identify with a character, the the more you’re going to, to root for them and like them, which is why if you study the first episode of Breaking Bad, Walter White, such a great like build up of this character who, you know, he’s this high school teacher who gets made fun of he, his wife gives him a hard time because he bought like, printer ink on the wrong credit card. He’s having another baby, and he can’t afford anything. He works at a car wash in his off hours and and then he gets diagnosed with cancer. And the doctor tells him it’s terminal and he has maybe six months to live. And so like, right, we can all relate and identify with something there.

Where, oh, and he has he has a kid with a handicap and you know he, there’s just all these things that you can latch on to and feel sympathy and relate to him and you’re like, I’m rooting for him. I want to see where he goes. And we all have those things. And that’s what I was talking about when I said tell the Truth, man, because we all have darkness, we all have our shadow. We all have these painful moments that we wish we could hide. And no one would ever know it about us. But that’s the stuff that makes people fall in love with, you know, if you can, if you can share those things, man, like you people are on board and they will go at it, they will they will cry when when they read your stuff, they will deeply move them. Yeah, to make them care about you.

Michael Simmons 50:35

Yeah, I was thinking, as you’re talking that that really resonated, and thinking about social media, that social media is this new thing. And it’s these standards, like, it’s like, a newsfeed and infinite scroll, you can friend and follow different things. And, you know, there’s the social dilemma came out pretty recently, and talking about the consequences of that. And I like to think about, okay, well, what does it look like, at its best case scenario. And I feel like a lot of the things you talked about hit that, that I feel like it’s inclusive, or everyone has a story and feels like they have a story to share, where they’re the hero, and they can really help someone who’s earlier in one area of their life. And by sharing it, they somehow get more whole, by learning something about themselves or feeling less shame, and they help someone else. And I feel like social media doesn’t have to be the way it is. And that is one potential future. That doesn’t really resonate. I completely agree,

Charlie Hoehn 51:34

like social media should be not should. But it could be this place where people are sharing their stories of overcoming, because everyone’s story is a damn tragedy. If you really ask anybody on the street, like, what have you been through over the last two years, you will not be able to come across one person who you’re like, Oh, my God, are you okay? Right, like we’ve all experienced so much tragedy and difficulty. And so it’s like, the toxic effects of social media, I think is when it’s, it’s people using it as a platform to say, I’m angry. I don’t know what to do with this anger. And so I’m going to complain about politicians, or I’m scared and paranoid. And so I’m going to be posting about conspiracy theories, because this is where my energy is. And I need other people to agree with it. And it’s like, be the hero of your life. Man. That’s, that’s what you can do.

Michael Simmons 52:36

Right? Yeah, that you can and then share how you did it without exactly like, share your it’s,

Charlie Hoehn 52:43

it’s one thing to get on Facebook and say, I’ve been struggling with depression, this last month, things have been really hard. My wife divorced me, my dog died, my blah, blah, blah, you know, and it’s just sob story. And it’s another thing to say, you know, what 2020 started off really challenging for me, I went through these things. But I made a decision, I’ll never forget this one day where I’ve looked in the mirror, and I made a decision. And I said, I have to become the person I want to become, I have to get my life back on track. And so this is what I did. I went through this and this and this. And when I joined CrossFit, or when I called up my best friend once a week, and we talked for an hour when it whatever you did share it, and what was the effect, all of a sudden, I could feel my depression, lifting me up. And all of a sudden, my, my ex wife, and I have this repaired relationship where things are different. But we’re great friends again, and blah, blah, blah. And until finally, I am the person I am today, where I, you know, I feel like I have control again. And I know that the cloud of depression is gone. And ever since I made that decision, it’s changed my life. Now, I share this with you, because I know, I could have used this when I was going through my hardships. And I hope that this helps you to it’s not that hard to be a thought leader. Right? Like you can do that in in anybody can do that anybody can be the hero of their story and share that.

Michael Simmons 54:23

And I love that wording of decision. What was the decision to become the person you could be? or How did you say to become the person you were meant to be? Or sure it could be? Yeah,

Charlie Hoehn 54:35

yeah, it could be an outside catalyst. It could be you know, I met this person or I hit rock bottom or it can be anything. It just has to be. I’ll never forget the moment when my life changed. And what was that moment tell us what changed your path for me to in play in a way that I’ll never forget the day that I’ve read the book. To play by Dr. Stuart Brown, I set my pivotal change was finding a book that changed how I thought about the topic of mental health. That was it. And so it doesn’t have to be this grandiose intro you mentioned earlier, which is something that a lot of authors really struggle with. I am worried my story won’t be good enough. I’m worried it’s not gonna be interesting enough. What is interesting about me picking a book off the shelf and reading it. That’s not crazy, right. It’s not super compelling. But it was the thing that catalyzed the change. And that’s all that matters.

Michael Simmons 55:42

Yeah, and I think what you’re saying, around the worried about I’m not being good enough their story, I feel that I know, and I want to share more personal stories. And, you know, I think it’s, that could be also like a, why there’s so much posturing online and things like that fundamentally comes down to you feel like your story’s not good enough, as it is

Charlie Hoehn 56:02

this 100%. And everybody’s story is good enough. The, the issue is, are you working to be the hero? Or are you sitting still in your story? Because I don’t want to read about a person who sits still. Yeah, I want to read about somebody who’s transforming. And this, I

Michael Simmons 56:26

think this is what I’m gonna take away from this interview is, I think a lot of times you think about writing a book, you That, to me, that’s almost the end of a process. The real part of it that let’s say a book takes one year, it’s all about the four years or however long before that, where you were being the hero in your own life to live up to your potential. And then the book is just the cataloguing of that, that process.

Charlie Hoehn 56:49

Yeah, yeah. And it’s, it is the cookbook for here’s how I became a hero. And here’s how you can be the hero of your journey, because I know you’re dealing with the same problems, right? So the test the litmus test of your book of is it any good? is, does your recipe work? When people apply it? Do they get remarkable results that they can’t help but share? If they do, you’ve got a great book, or a great article, or a great video or whatever? Yeah. Beautiful.

Michael Simmons 57:20

Thank you so much, Charlie. I’ll give the last give you the microphone. If you want to say any last things. If not, you know, for people who want to learn more, read your work, your books, your articles, your you follow you on social media, where should they go?

Charlie Hoehn 57:36

Yeah, charliehoehn.com is the best place to go. If this was helpful. Definitely ping me a message I always like to hear when something put out into the world makes a ripple in somebody’s life. And yeah, if you’re a thought leader, an emerging thought leader, and you’re good, hit me up, let’s talk.

Michael Simmons 57:58

Great. And we should they hit you up about Scribe or video, things or just

Charlie Hoehn 58:02

yeah. So I’m, I’m in a kind of a unique box. But I do anything thought leaders try to do I have done many, many, many times. So whether it’s making books, writing articles, although you’re you’re the go to guy for articles that would trust you over me. videos, courses, speaking TEDx talks, et cetera, et cetera. You name it, I’ve done it. And so I love working with not not everybody, but I’d love working with emerging thought leaders who have compelling stories and are just scared to tell them and so I can help them really step into who they are, and own it and and really become it in I help them see it. So I’ll give a quick example. And then we can we can wrap up if you’d like. Several years ago, I started working with a guy named Azul Terronez. Azul was a former teacher. And he’d written a couple, you know, course books for students and teachers. And he wasn’t really sure what he wanted to do next. And so we talked for I was running a little group coaching group at the time. We talked for a few months. And he shared this thing offhandedly that he didn’t think was that remarkable, which was over his entire teaching career. He had polled surveyed over 20,000 students on one question, which was what makes a good teacher great. And that’s he was like, Yeah, I was like, so what are you doing with that information? He was like, Oh, you know, I just did it for myself. I thought it was super interesting. I was like, Yeah, man. Why don’t you share that with people because there are a lot of teachers and students who care about those answers, and so I helped him realise you have a good TEDx talk right there, and help them, set it up, create the speech and deliver it. And last I checked, it’s got 2 million views in so it came this thing for him where he was like, wow, I have, I have this, this really cool part of me of my story that I can share with others and really make a deep impact on teachers and education around the world, just by sharing what I was a geek about. And I think a lot of people have that. They just have a tough time. We, I struggle with this. You can’t read the label when you’re the jar. Exactly. And so it’s, I help people read their label, and then own it. Beautiful.

Michael Simmons 1:00:58

I’m gonna follow up with you for myself on that as well. Thank you so much, Charlie. You’re awesome. And we’ll have to do a round two sometime.

Charlie Hoehn 1:01:05

Thank you, Michael. Likewise, brother.

Outro 1:01:09

Growing Your Business and Building Relationships Through Podcasting with Dr. Jeremy Weisz

May 19, 2021 // by michaeld // Podcast // No Comments

Dr. Jeremy Weisz is the Co-Founder of Rise25, a company that helps B2B businesses increase their ROI, referrals, and client list with done-for-you podcasts. Jeremy is also the Founder and CEO of InspiredInsider, where he hosts interviews with top business leaders, including the Founders of P90X, Atari, Baby Einstein, and many more.

Jeremy is a firm believer in the power of podcasting after making close friends, meeting his business partner, and gaining countless clients and referral partners out of his own podcast. Outside of building connections through podcasts, Jeremy earned his Doctor of Chiropractic, and currently runs his own chiropractic and massage facility in downtown Chicago, Chiropractical Solutions & Massage.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

Dr. Jeremy Weisz describes the benefits of podcasting and his own approach to podcasting.
The different types of interviews for relationship building– and how this leads to amazing content.
What makes podcasting stand out from other forms of communication?
Jeremy’s follow-up methods after recording an interview.
How to turn relationships into sales for your business (hint: be clear about what you do).
The mindset of podcasting: you don’t have to be a big name.
How do you choose your podcast topic?
Rise25’s mission in helping podcasters share their story.
Jeremy discusses the obstacles of starting a podcast– and how to steer clear of them.
Jeremy shares his strategy to avoid one of the biggest mistakes in relationship building.
How curiosity drives an interview and tips for researching guests before you turn your mic on.
The future of podcasting and multimedia platforms.

In this episode…

How do you begin creating a podcast, and how can you make it stand out? What are the benefits of having a podcast, and how can it help you expand your business? If you’ve ever considered starting your own podcast, then this episode is for you!

According to Dr. Jeremy Weisz, every business should have a podcast; it’s as essential as having a company website. Podcasts can build relationships and help you grow your business—plus, they allow your story to live on in the digital world.

In this episode of The Michael Simmons Show, host Michael Simmons talks with Dr. Jeremy Weisz, Co-Founder of Rise25 and Founder of InspiredInsider, about the power behind podcasting. Jeremy shares his expert tips on starting a podcast, avoiding common obstacles along the way, and using your podcast to build relationships and grow your business. Stay tuned.

Resources Mentioned in this episode

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by my company, Seminal.

We help you create blockbuster content that rises above the noise, changes the world, and builds your business.

To learn about creating blockbuster content, read my article: Blockbuster: The #1 Mental Model For Writers Who Want To Create High-Quality, Viral Content

Episode Transcript

Intro 0:02

Michael Simmons 0:14

Today, I have the honour of introducing and interviewing one of my closest friends in the world, Jeremy Weisz, I can honestly say, I would not be here today doing this podcast. If it were not for Jeremy, were one of the clients of his company Rise25. He helps B2B companies create their dream 100 List of the clients they want. And then basically, is an easy button for you to launch that podcast and make it possible. So I’m really excited to be Jeremy’s client. But also Jeremy beyond being a very successful entrepreneur. He’s literally interviewed 1000s of entrepreneurs, from the top entrepreneurs in the world, like the founders of Einstein, Bagel, Atari, Kettle chips, the Orlando Magic, and many other company, the literally 1000s of people he’s interviewed. And so by the end of today’s podcast, you’re going to learn how to grow your own business with podcast, we’re gonna talk very specifically about podcasting strategies that are basically guaranteed to work. And then we’re going to talk about interviewing strategies, and how does Jeremy prep for the interviews and make the interviews a success? Jeremy is one of the most authentic people I know. And also just the really cares about other people, though, is also one of the most connected people I know. So without further ado, I give you Jeremy Weisz.

Jeremy Weisz 1:41

All right, Jeremy,

Michael Simmons 1:43

Welcome to the podcast, my friend.

Jeremy Weisz 1:46

It’s an absolute pleasure, always a pleasure to talk to you.

Michael Simmons 1:50

I’ve been excited for this because I feel like you have a very unique view on podcasts that I have literally heard no one else talk about this, as a very my mind a very proven way, high odds of being very successful as a podcast, where I think a lot of people who go into content, their expectations of success aren’t matched with what it really takes. And you’re just one of the most genuine, kind, giving, like authentic people I know. And most connected, and just anytime I get to spend with you, I just are appreciative.

Jeremy Weisz 2:26

Thank you. But that means so much coming especially from you. So I really appreciate it.

Michael Simmons 2:30

So before we jump into your story, and how you’ve gotten to producing over 1000 episodes, and having hundreds of your own episodes that you’ve done, what I want to ask you is can you tell me more about your philosophy and your unique approach to podcasting? Yeah, definitely.

Jeremy Weisz 2:47

Um, you know, Michael, we were talking about before we hit record, um, you know, the common question about podcasting is okay, how do I get downloads and subscribers? And what microphone? Do I use the technology side? And I usually tell people listen, super easy use Zoom, USB mic, Blue Yeti done, okay, your research is done. Right on that side, the Dallas of subscribers, you know, I like things that are guaranteed proven. Okay. And if you like, Well, listen, Mike, I want to be the next Joe Rogan, I want to be the next Tim Ferriss. That is a hard path to follow. You know, it’s like, less than 1% of all podcasts. And people will never accomplish that. And so, you know, for the normal human beings like me, I’m looking at what are the best ways to like, why would someone do a podcast and it’s very simple. The way I look at a podcast is, and the way I look at life, in general, is all about giving to my relationships, what are the best ways I can give to my relationships in over the past, you know, since I’ve been doing podcasts since 2008. The best way I’ve found to give to my relationships is through podcasting. Okay, it by the way, Michael, you don’t need to have someone on your podcast to give to them on your podcast, right? They just the other day, I was talking to someone, and I mentioned their book, okay, on the podcast, right? I go, um, you know, I’m a pull up, here’s my notes on and you can see this, these are my notes from the podcast if someone’s watching the video, but I write down every single person or resource that I mentioned on the podcast or the other person mentioned. And for if I have their contact information, if I don’t have their contact information, I will message them on LinkedIn and tell them hey, we mentioned you on the podcast and I will purposefully have friends books that I think everyone should check out that I admire that I will mention them on the podcast and so you know a podcast is a way for to profile people’s thought leadership. It’s also a way to mention resources and people you respect in love and spread the word, right. And so it’s a way a channel for you, for anyone, myself included to give to my relationships, okay? And that’s the way I think of a podcast and, and relationship building one relationship can be game changing for a person or a company. I have gone on with people I’ve interviewed, Michael, I have gone on family vacations with their family, John Corcoran and I met and are business partners because of podcasting, people introduced us because we bought a podcast. So there’s so many benefits. And by the way, I haven’t talked about my download numbers, subscriber numbers, if I’m ranking the top 10, of business of iTunes, I’ve been in the top, you know, 15 of business in iTunes before and by the way, it didn’t even move the needle on my business. When I wasn’t. Now I did get more people reaching out to our PR people wanting to feature their their, you know, clients, but it didn’t move the needle on my business being ranked higher. Again, I’m not, I’m not monetizing through downloads and subscribers and sponsorship. Because, you know, my business is the, you know, Rise25 where we launch and run people’s podcasts for them is my message that I get out briefly in the beginning. And that’s it. That’s all I talked about. I talked about just focus on the guest. So yeah, that’s my, yeah, there’s

Michael Simmons 6:32

a lot let me unpack this. Interesting. So number one, you’re talking about podcasting as a relational tool, versus a content tool alone, which is a very unique perspective. And I’ll be honest, I had resistance to that at first, because I’m from all my writing, I’m coming from the content first perspective. But I’ve I switched, and I still value content, but I really see the value of having both. So number one, you’re guaranteed if you have an hour an hour and have conversation with someone, you’re guaranteed to build a relationship with them and just know that much deeper. And I think it’s even deeper than let’s say, if you had met someone for coffee or something like that, you’re researching them, and there’s just a energy that happens there. That’s powerful. And so you’re guaranteed to have that. And the reality of what I know from content. And now training lots of people to create content or courses is, it’s a long term game, that it takes years for a lot of people to honestly break through and start if they if they’re really focused on getting through it. And there’s over a million podcasts right now. So you shouldn’t, for most people, you should expect that you’re going to immediately break out. And so it’s worth setting up your mastery journey, so that you get the benefits right away upfront, and you’re guaranteed to benefit. And also what I like about this approach is a lot of people have analysis paralysis, that you feel like you have the best content ever to break through. And the result is you never get started because you’re so hard on yourself. And this is an I had that I’ve been wanting to start a podcast for five years. And the reason I started and having a now it’s I’m more taking this B2B, relational view and just saying I have to get in the game and improve my skills.

Jeremy Weisz 8:18

Let me talk about the content piece, because that’s is a common thing like, well, because we’ll talk about this. And I’ll talk about there’s different buckets of interviews. And we always start with strategy first, like the first several sessions we talked about with people and you know this, I don’t even talk about podcasting, I just talked about who are your best relationships, and we don’t even talk podcasting in. And by the way, people are like, well, I just want this to be the best content ever. Mike, listen, of course, of course. And it will be. And here’s why. When you think about the type of interviews you can do, okay, now you could have a thought leadership interview, which is your expertise, and you’re the thought leader on it. And then when we talk about external interviews, you could have social proof interviews, meaning like you have a awesome, amazing big gas, like you have Bill Gates, or Reed Hoffman or someone big that everyone’s heard of or company, you could have strategic partners and referral partner interviews. So these are people that you should be or are collaborating with a lot. And a lot of times you already have amazing relationships with these people. Now, here’s the thing when we talk about content, when you have your best strategic partners or for partners out there in the industry, you’re in you are interested in what they do, they’re interested in what you do. Yeah, it will create amazing content. Because of that, you know, friendship, collaboration. And so people are really you know, Michael concerned about the content and, and I already know that, of course, that’s like it’s kind of like when people talk about your company, and like if you want to scale your company, you got to Xyz and a lot of some people go listen, you have to have a good product. You have to have a good product to sell your hobby. That’s kind of like par for the course. That’s a given. Right. So, you know, there is a huge effort to get reps in as I can interview with a different skill set, and you will get reps in. But when you feature your best relationships and partners, they’re in the same industry as you. So they’ll tell cool stories. And it will lead to good content. So it will lead to good content. But the thought first is instead of content is like, who do you have on? And from there, you can think of what are the cool questions to ask and write the methodology.

Michael Simmons 10:32

First, who then what kind? Yeah,

Jeremy Weisz 10:34

the methodologies that you teach and go through are, like, invaluable for people. And they can use that in writing in speaking in writing a book in a podcast in a video, they can use those across all of it. So like the foundation you are teaching, they can put into play with any medium, right? Yeah,

Michael Simmons 10:56

yeah. And what I like about it, too, is, as you know, I’m kind of using the blockbuster approach for writing where it’s been a lot of time researching something, you can create one of the best articles that I’ve ever been written on that. And so I also see how having these interviews can help. Let’s say you’re wanting to research a world expert, you just, you’re just saying, Hey, can I have half hour of your time or hour of your time totally get a small clip, it might be hard, but if it’s for a podcast, you get a piece of content that stands alone, you can even chop up when the clips and you get the content for your develop your ideas.

Jeremy Weisz 11:31

So totally, it’s a total shortcut. And when you’re like, hey, I want to just talk to you and have a virtual cup of coffee. Like, I don’t know, I’m super, super busy. Someone’s world renowned. But, you know, if I say, listen, Mike, I’m doing a series of the top direct response marketers on the planet. And I would love to include you in that and hear the other people I have already included. You’re like, sure that sounds great. Or even better. The last person I interviewed I say, Who should I have on and they suggest Michael Simmons, I go, Michael, I had so and so recommend you. And I love to have you on. So it’s not even me asking. It’s one of your colleagues who you’re best friends with, recommending you to do it. And and if I’m like, I want to really learn from the best of the best on direct response work, or whatever that topic is having those people on. It’s like you’re learning from the source, and you’re doing research. So it’s a toll shortcut.

Michael Simmons 12:29

So one thing you said that’s interesting is, that is one of the best ways to build relationships. And so when you said that, I thought, okay, there’s different ways that, you know, one is trying to get on somebody’s calendar, take them out to the coffee, another one would be go to a conference, or bringing conferences together, you’ve got in the background, Rise25.com, where you’ve brought a lot of entrepreneurs together, right before COVID. to, to do retreats and learn from each other. What makes podcasts in and out for you as kind of the highest leverage way?

Jeremy Weisz 13:03

Yeah, I love that question. Such a good question. And it lives on. And what I love about it, if you have a virtual coffee, or you go into event, it’s amazing. There’s no replacing, like, you know, in this day and age like face to face, even in you know, pressing flesh, eating, you know, you know, eating with each other, but that that 30 minute conversation, like right now and we’re talking this lives on this lives on for years, I’ve had people reach out from an interview I did eight years ago. I’m like, I love this interview. And then I go cool. Like, I reached out to the person who I did the interview with and go, I just got a message from someone saying they listened to that episode eight years ago, and they love it. So it lives on. And, you know, it’s something continuously I talked about giving, it creates this give loop. Because when someone messages me and go Jeremy, I love the interview you did in you know, someone just email the other day, I love the interview you did with so and so I emailed that person go, Hey, I got this message. It’s just a way for me to reconnect with that person in a positive way. I’m not asking for anything, I’m not looking for anything. It’s just always a positive interaction. Hey, by the way, when they did that, I posted the interview on Facebook because I like I forgot about the interview from eight years ago. And so it continuously gives to, you know, that person and it gives to other people seeking that content.

Michael Simmons 14:26

lives on Yeah, really interesting. What I’m hearing at the meta level too is that you’re connecting a lot of dots. So if somebody gives you feedback in an episode, you’re not just like, Oh, thank you, you actually send it and let it let that go back to the guest. Or you if you mentioned someone on a podcast, you say, Hey, we mentioned you on this podcast or so on or you at the end of a podcast that sounds like you asked people for who would you ask, Who would you Who else would you recommend having on and then you use that To connect with people, so I don’t even know how to describe that. But it feels like there’s like a quilt of relationships. And you’re kind of bringing it all back to supporting those relationships.

Jeremy Weisz 15:10

Yeah. And not only that, Michael, if someone’s like, Hey, you should have Michael on the podcast, I will make sure to mention that person and that person’s work on the podcast as a thank you to so it’s not just Oh, yeah, let me introduce you to someone who be awesome. That’s great. But I also want to thank that person by profiling their work in that particular interview that they recommended.

Michael Simmons 15:34

Wow, I see, I thought there’s all these dots that, you know, you wouldn’t normally think about in an interview. And so Okay, so we got the business’s unique strategy to be named strategy. I think about you’re targeting B2B, you’re thinking relational. And you’re thinking niche, rather than Okay, how do I become the top 100 podcasts in the world? And if I don’t do that, then I’m a failure.

Jeremy Weisz 15:58

Exactly, exactly.

Michael Simmons 16:01

And so people

Jeremy Weisz 16:01

go after that, Michael, I, you know, and I reached out to them four months, five months, six months down the road, they quit, they quit, because it’s not serving their goal of their business. And so it has to, it has to serve whatever their biggest goal is, and that biggest goal has to lead to something in their business or you it’s not sustainable, and they will quit, most likely at some point.

Michael Simmons 16:22

Okay, so your first thing on the first call is you get people on the phone, you help people identify those key strategic partners. And then you have the interview. What do you do after the episode to really take it to the next level and actually go from Hey, we just talked for an hour and hit it off to let’s let’s talk more.

Jeremy Weisz 16:43

Yeah, yeah. Well, you mean from like, if you want to continue to collaborate with a person? Or what do you do with the episode itself?

Michael Simmons 16:51

collaborate with the person?

Jeremy Weisz 16:52

Okay. Yeah. I mean, you know, the funny thing is, you don’t have to wait till the episode goes live. Right. So right afterwards, I can give to that person without before even publishing the episode. So let’s say we get off. What I’ll do is I just the other day, is I you know, because I already prepared like a little bio that I read for the person. So right after the interview, I will take one thing that person said that I thought was profound. I’ll put it on social media, I’ll put it on, let’s say go to LinkedIn, put it put that one bullet, hey, I talked to Michael, he just shared the amazing how to create blockbuster content. Here’s like one thing he mentioned, you need to split test titles. Like if you’re not supposed testing titles, that’s like the 8020 of blockbuster. Just think about that. And then I’ll post your whole bio, because I’ve already prepared it on there with a link to your site. So again, it’s nothing about me. It’s all about you and what you’re doing. And I could do that five minutes after an interview. So yeah, and then tag you on it, of course. And you’re you know, like, Wow, thanks, Jeremy. Like, and I’ll go on Facebook and do the same thing. Check out what Michael’s doing on blog posts or content, you have to check out his website, tag them. And what I’ll do is typically, I’ll tag other people in there that I think should be checking out your stuff. Wow. Okay, great strategy. And so it’s again, what are the what is, I think of what is a way to give to you? And what are you? What is your biggest initiative, your biggest initiatives? Like, I want to get my blockbuster content stuff out there? Well, if I know other authors, I’m like, you need to check out Michael stuff. I’m just trying to think of put myself in your shoes and what would you want? And that’s it. And then right after the interview, Michael, yes, in collaboration, I think of those several things that I do, that allows me to collaborate on afterwards, and all of them go back to giving as much as humanly possible to someone. So it’s like, okay, Michael, from talking to you. Here’s introductions that would be helpful for you. And not just saying, Hey, I made you say this, I go, my network, your network, because if I have someone in I really admire their work, anyone I’ve had on the podcast, let me know it’d be a good intro. And I always do a double opt in intro, but I make specific suggestions. So I don’t just leave it to you. I’m like, Michael, from talking to you and doing research on you. I think you should talk to whatever like, you need to talk to Gino Wickman, I think he be or whatever, like, I’ll make specific suggestions that both of you it will be a great connection for both of you. And then I will then reach out to that person right afterwards and go Hey, Mike, I just did this the other day had a conversation with someone, I go here I know the exact person you should be talking to. Okay. And again, it’s only I relation to these people only because I had them on the podcast at one point and, and then I send them a link to the interview I did. With that person that would benefit them like you’re looking to build this type of company. This person sold their company for nine figures. I’m happy to make an introduction. here’s the here’s the link. And by the way, when they watch that they’re also you’re gaining Trust, credibility, all that stuff in there watching the interview, meet me doing an interview with that person, but it’s also benefiting them to hear what they want to build. And so I texted the person right after I go, Hey, I have a great introduction for you let me know if it’s a fit, you know, that person responded. I didn’t talk to that person in, like, a couple years, that person responded this morning, within 10 minutes, I go have a great introduction for you let me know, here’s a person’s bio. And they go, Okay, cool. And so just continuously, it links back in past interviews, current interviews. So to answer your question, offering introductions, yeah, posting on social media, and tagging people about that person. Um, and even making suggestions like I was on I had an interview, and I go, listen, I did a lot of research on you. Here’s some looking at your website. Here’s a couple improvements, I think, from my perspective on your messaging, and some of the stuff you’re doing it just gave them a nine a Meanwhile, like in a supportive, supportive way, gave them feedback on what I thought would be helpful for them. And they were totally appreciative of that. Right.

Michael Simmons 21:11

So okay, this is awesome. And so recap one thing, and then ask you a question. A somewhat cynical question.

Jeremy Weisz 21:20

Go ahead. I love the cynical questions.

Michael Simmons 21:22

So the first thing is, what I’m hearing is just the overall that really, it’s not just strategies and tactics, it’s an overall mindset of giving, and put it in valuing relationships. And so once people, you interview someone, it’s almost like they’re part of your introduction network. And they’ll, they become a resource for other people. And you can also help them as well. So it’s like they’re joining a mastermind or something. And so for me, as someone as you know, I’ve written a lot of articles on relationship building. My previous business was based on, we had one conference where we brought together university presidents, billionaire entrepreneurs, how about young entrepreneurs. And we also have done a lot of mastermind retreats. And I think I sometimes became too relational. In other words, I love relationship building so much. I’m like, Okay, I’m losing sense of, Okay, what’s our goals for the business? And I almost went too high on serendipity. And also, I didn’t have at that time the skill of asking for help, or trying to make the sale. And so I feel like sometimes, like, I don’t, I didn’t feel like overtime just got overwhelming, maybe, or maybe I burned out on some level. So I’ve changed my approach, I’m become a little bit more of a hermit and focus on a smaller network of people. But I feel like I probably went too far. So I guess my question for you is, okay, obviously, giving you have to start with giving. But let’s say you build these closer relationships, how do you turn them into actual sales in your your business? Or have you ever seen other people do it? And can you give me some examples of it?

Jeremy Weisz 23:05

Yeah. I mean, Adam Grant wrote a great book about, you know, given Give and Take in, and about the most successful people are givers and least successful are givers. Yeah. Because the least successful, you know, because they’re not thinking strategically about giving. It’s not like, when I think about giving, I don’t necessarily have expectations of getting something in return. But if you’re connecting to the right people, that will happen naturally. And you’re connecting to the wrong people that won’t happen are people who aren’t other givers. Right? So I guess, see, your question is more on making sure. How do you keep focus with so many, you know, relationships or things? Is that kind of,

Michael Simmons 23:51

yeah, I guess there’s different levels of like, one, there’s like, picking the right guests that have on that actually strategic value to your business? And then to is okay, if they’re a potential partner, how do you follow up after the podcast? It could be a little bit awkward that you you have someone in the context of, you’re interviewing them, you’re featuring them. And then now you’re like, Okay, you want to become a client or you wanna become a partner? How do you walk that line?

Jeremy Weisz 24:19

Yeah, I mean, okay, so that’s a good question. And so there’s two things there one is mood, you know, how do you move that relationship forward? That that, that interview into maybe a referral partnership or client, okay. And then it’s like, how do you get not overwhelmed and how do you focus in on what is most important? So the first the first question is more is similar I was saying before But listen, when you’re on the call, and you tell you know, you’re telling the audience Hey, like, if you on the interview, if you’re looking for creating the best blockbuster content in the world, Like, I have the methodology of the courses, Michael Simmons, like, check it out. Right? So and then you go on and you do the interview, the person already knows what you do, you don’t have to, like hit him over the head with it. Right? And so, for me, it’s more of like, okay, they know what you do. And you have to be clear about what you do to people. Right. And then that’s, that’s what a lot of, you know, people may be in I have definitely historically had this problem is not even telling people not even worried about myself and worried more about other people and not even letting people know what I do today, at least I let them know what I do. And I’m so they know, and being very clear about what I do, right. And so some people are also not so clear on what they do, to the universe to themselves to the messaging on their web page. But if you’re super clear on someone, go, Hey, this is what I do. And then just serving them, they already know what you do. And when you serve them, you don’t need to hit them over the head with it, they go, okay, they’ll think, okay, when someone wants to launch on a podcast, Jeremy seems really knowledgeable. He seems like a great person, I totally trust him. I’ll send them his way. I don’t need to, like keep hitting over the head with, hey, if you have any people who want to launch on a podcast call me like, they know they know what I do. So I feel like just one, you bring up a point, when you’re giving people like those people, when you have them on the podcast, you you have to let them know what you do. Because in the podcast realm, when we talk about it, you mentioned the very beginning here is exactly what I do. Okay. And so that becomes it, then it just becomes about giving that person and from a referral partner strategic partner standpoint, Michael, sometimes I’ll just be totally upfront, like, someone will come on and go, listen, I totally admire your work. I love your work. I love what you do. And that’s why I want to have you on and I want to collaborate with you deeper, like I want to do something with you in the future. Like, I don’t know what it is. But I’d love to collaborate, right? It could be a webinar that we do together could be maybe we just do an email for each other to our clients or for I don’t know what it is. But sometimes they’ll just say like, I love your work, I love to collaborate further. Whatever that looks like. I don’t know. And sometimes we’ll just brainstorm either like what what can we do together? What what what do we do to continue the relationship? And sometimes I don’t know the answer. And I just bring it up. And we actually have a dialogue about it. But, you know, depending on my rapport with someone, I’ll just say that, you know, just right up front.

Michael Simmons 27:40

Yeah, at the end of the after you interview them? You’ll say,

Jeremy Weisz 27:43

yeah, yeah, the end ago, like one of the reason I want to have you on is I totally admire your work. I love what you do. And I’d love to find a way that we can collaborate in the future at what that looks like. I don’t know, I’m open to suggestions. And yeah, that’s it.

Michael Simmons 27:58

So what I hear you saying at some level is to make a sale, there’s, there’s multiple steps at the very basic level, you know, people should like and trust you, you know that. And number two, being clear about what you do. Because if they don’t know what you do, then they’re not going to connect the dots, and then even just broaching the idea of I like of your work, I’d love to find a way to collaborate, it makes it more of a discussion and a part A portion. And so you can kind of see how that lands, you know, somebody, some people might might be really excited, like, Yeah, let’s do that. How do we do that? though? It’s kind of like dating, you’re playing? you’re planting the seeds, and then seeing what comes back at you. It sounds like what?

Jeremy Weisz 28:39

Yeah, and I don’t have a sub plan in mind. Most times, I’m just like, there’s something, whatever that is, and sometimes the other person will have a better idea than I did. Like, I’ve had people go, Oh, yeah, I could see. And they listed three things. I’m like, that sounds great. You know, I would have never come up with that. But you know, you bring up a good point, I guarantee you might have those people in your network right now that you love. And you kind of know what they do. But you’re not exactly sure. And there’s people in my network too. They’re not like really crystal clear in communicating, let’s say let’s say they’re an executive coach, but you’re not clear on Okay, what type of companies or what type of people if they were super clear on that messaging, you would go, okay, you help women leaders who are CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, and you’ll know when you come across someone like that, you need to go to whoever, right. So it’s part about making sure you’re clear in your messaging, what you do and who you serve. So So makes it more referral, I think, yeah, you know, mutual friend Michael Roderick said this once. He said, like being unclear as kryptonite to a connector, you know, and if you don’t know, it’s always How are you supposed to connect them to someone else? Right, and what their biggest focus and which kind of goes to your other question, which is like, there’s all this stuff going on? How do I know what to, you know, I can be taken in so many directions. So I think having in mind what your focus is like your focus may be like for that company, it could have been getting rock star speakers or something, let’s say, well, when you go into a conversation, it’s also being clear in your messaging when you’re like, hey, how can I help you, whatever. I’m right now 100% focused on Rockstar speakers. So if you don’t have a rockstar speaker, if it’s his criteria, let me know. So it goes back to being just clear on the messaging. And I’m not asking that person to refer me I’m just saying, This is what I’m, this is my focus right now.

Michael Simmons 30:41

I really like that really like that. So you’re you’re giving, but you’re also just being clear about what you’re, what you’re focused on who you serve, and what, and then letting them connect the dots.

Jeremy Weisz 30:54

And here’s the thing, Michael, I want to point this out what my focus in is a give to someone else. So I said, My focus is right. Now let’s say I’m looking to feature top venture capitalists. Okay, I’m not saying I’m looking for clients or venture guys, I’m not looking for an introduction for you know, so it’s, it’s a gift to them to go Oh, cool. Jeremy, like, I know, two people, that’d be amazing for you. And so my ask is not a ask. It’s a gift, right? It’s featuring someone. And that’s why I love my friends who have podcasts, it makes it very easy for me to refer to them. So a podcast is makes it to your so much more referral.

Michael Simmons 31:38

That’s another really good point. I hadn’t even thought of doing that. If you’re just referring someone to catch up or have a conversation. Sometimes it’s just we’re all busy. Yeah, be like, you don’t want another one. As you play here,

Jeremy Weisz 31:49

you start qualifying. You’re like, Okay, this person is busy. I don’t want to turn in a sales call. I don’t want this. But it’s like if you know, the person they’re on is just profiling them on their platform. And you’re like, hey, talk to him, I totally trust him, he’ll profile you, he’s probably going to shout out you on LinkedIn, and Facebook and put across all the podcast channels, you will not have to qualify that person. Man, wow,

Michael Simmons 32:15

I really love this. It’s getting it’s connecting the dots for me on a few different levels.

Jeremy Weisz 32:21

So, you

Michael Simmons 32:23

know, as you know, in our seminal course, where we teach people about writing, I’ve learned a lot in that there’s challenges that people have with writing that are a lot mindset related is that it doesn’t even come down to strategies are totally that people over guess themselves. I say, oh, that person when it comes to my podcast, and one of the big challenges people have is that stops him from getting started his topic. They want their exact topic and who they’re going to serve. You don’t want to start a podcast and then realize pivot or things like that. How do you think about that for topic?

Jeremy Weisz 32:57

Yeah. Yeah, that’s such a good question. You’re, it’s so onpoint. People don’t do it. Because of the mindset. It’s purely mindset. Okay. So here’s what what clicked for me. So, you know, I was a producer of Mixergy for six years. And here’s what it clicked for me, Michael? Because it’s a mindset of like, Who am I? I’ve never done a podcast, you know, all this, all this mindset stuff. It’s all mindset stuff. I’ve had some really, who I consider big thought leaders, big business, people say the same thing. Like, who am I? To start a podcast? Who am I? Well, yeah, but here’s what clicked for me. So I was, you know, I did a lot of the pre interviews, I would spend 45 to 60 minutes prepping the guest to make sure it was the best interview for Mixergy for Andrew. And so I got on with someone who you will be considered a big name, entrepreneur. And I was, you know, we were chit chatting, and he was like, Alright, Jeremy. This is awesome. Like, when are we going to hit record and get started? I’m like, No, I’m not doing the interview. We’re just prepping for the interview with Andrew. And immediately what I realized is, he thought I was doing the interview. He didn’t really care that I was doing the interview, and nor did he know me, nor did he realize, okay, you’re going to be doing it with the host who’s been doing it for, you know, X number of years. So I realized right down like, he was happy to be profiled. He didn’t care that he was on the phone with me. And so it was an interesting light ball that clicked is like, you don’t have to be a big name. You don’t have to be known in the industry. People are really happy if you’re profiling them. But but the from a mindset piece, here’s what I say, listen, you’re not when you start, especially a podcast. You’re not starting in reaching out to the people you don’t know who are the biggest people in the industry. You’re starting with the people who know I can trust you, who are also in the industry. So you don’t have to worry about getting the whoever, like the Gary V’s and the whoever is big out there, whatever niche you’re in. So when you’re like, Listen, and people, everyone has a some circle of network that is in the industry that they know that is also influential in that industry. Maybe they’re not the, like, known by, you know, standards of worldwide or household name. But so that kind of gets people comfortable with Okay, just start with the people, you know? Yeah, yeah.

Michael Simmons 35:39

Okay, so start with the people, you know, and then what about topic though, because let’s say sometimes people, they don’t want to just do about their business, maybe it’s boring, they want to do a little bit. So it’s like, the business is a part of it. But they’re also talking about topics they’re interested in. Is that bad thing to do? Or should you know, I called mine, The Michael Simmons Show, because I’m knowing myself, I can’t predict my future self. And this guy, this that leads a pretty open. And I notice you also you kind of have a generic generic format, but then you also have series, which seems to really get hyper focus for a period of time, which I really liked that idea.

Jeremy Weisz 36:16

Exactly. Because and that’s, you know, topic wise. That’s a great question. So there’s topics like thought leadership topics that like, you have an expertise. And then there’s external interviews, like, so what kind of topics Do you cover as far as guests wise? Right. So from a thought leadership perspective, for you, what I always think of, it goes back to what your focus is, like, if your focus is the blockbuster, you know, the seminar course, or, you know, whatever that is, it should be a story. And you know, like, stories make the best content. So what is the one your favorite story from one of those focuses that you have? Okay, because people love stories. It’s also fun to tell stories, it also is informative about what you do. So if you want to stay on point and focused, but have it be great content, you can’t go wrong with a great story. You know, but it goes back to and I’m sure you know, what’s critical is most people don’t have the training that you provide in your courses in your training. So they’re, they’re well equipped in this right in the content piece. But in general, that’s how I think of like, what is the focus? And what’s the best story? You can tell? That’s kind of adjacently related to that focus. If that makes sense. It doesn’t be directly Can you give an

Michael Simmons 37:45

example of that?

Jeremy Weisz 37:46

Yeah. Um, so Okay, so, um, the other day, I have someone who we’re running their podcast,

Michael Simmons 37:56

and, and there have dozens of people that you’re managing the podcast, or Oh, more than

Jeremy Weisz 38:01

Yes, exactly. Over 100. Yeah. Over over 60.

Michael Simmons 38:06

Nice. Yeah, that’s awesome.

Jeremy Weisz 38:08

Um, so, you know, this person, their focus is they want to buy other types of businesses like them in their industry. That’s their focus.

Michael Simmons 38:19

Now, okay.

Jeremy Weisz 38:20

So when we’re talking about the thought leadership, and we get on with someone, and we’re running their podcasts, we actually interviewed them for the thought leadership so they could show up. They don’t need to worry about it, and we’ll interview them and get the get the you know, the best story out. So when we are brainstorming what episodes we want to do around that, I go, well, what’s what’s been an amazing story around you purchasing someone. So like, let’s take them through the story arc. You purchase this guy’s business, okay, let’s call Mike. He’s like, Oh, yeah, Mike, what was it like before? Like, what would you know, Mike was, uh, yeah, he resisted. He didn’t want he, like, I went to him. He was really amazing business and industry. He didn’t want to sell. And he gave all the reasons. So we take him through the story arc of he didn’t want to sell what was it like with that initial conversation? Then? What is the process look like, of you trying to acquire his business? And what was life like after acquiring it? So some, you know, this is an interesting story. People can hear the guy’s methodology of hearing when I approach someone to buy them. Here’s some stuff I’m looking for. Here’s how the conversation goes. Here’s what happened with this guy, Mike. So we walk through, you know, a hero’s journey story arc about that. And so, it’s great content. And people if they’re thinking about buying a business or they’re thinking of like doing business with this person, he could send this episode to people and say, Hey, before we talk, listen to this episode. I actually walked through the story of Mike of the before during after he answers all the questions. He Take him through his methodology, all in the story of Mike. And especially Michael, what were the objections Mike had in the beginning? Well, I didn’t want to sell my business. I didn’t think I could sell it for as much as you know, you paid for it, all those things. Well, that when someone’s listening, they’re thinking the exact same thing. So everyone has a story like that, that you could have a story of, okay, you know, Jane came, she’s, like, totally sceptical. She’s like, I’m not good enough. I can’t write blockbuster content, like all those things that are in the mindset stuff. And she came in, she was an author, she had maybe written a one book, here’s what what she did with the blockbuster content. Here’s, it took her six months before she got traction, just not like an overnight success. And so when someone listens to that, they’ll be like, okay, it’s not, I’m not coming up with expectation or one article, and boom, like, I’m famous or something. So you walk them through that in this in the form of and you already know this. Right? Right. Yeah, talking to stuff that you know, and you teach. Alright, so

Michael Simmons 41:03

this is really fascinating on a few different levels. So I think what happened is you’re talking so there’s one type of podcast where I’m interviewing other people, and for your clients, you also have a service where you interview your clients, and you pull out their story. And what you’re doing as you interview them is, you’re almost thinking about it from a sales funnel, is you know, there’s a funnel of reaching out to people. And then once you have a lead, talking to them on the phone, there’s different points in that funnel, where you could have an interview or a story. So let’s say, I just talked to someone this morning from Australia, who’s a business owner, and there’s a great conversation. But it let’s say, there’s an objection that she that she would have. If I could I could, somebody from our team could send her the interview clip and say, Hey, before you jump on, you may want to listen to this totally. So you’re 100% outside of the paradigm of like, let me blast this out and hope, you know, people discover on Apple iTunes, which you’re looking at that is, that’s great if that happens. But here, if you can have a conversation with someone where it goes from, it’s like, they don’t even know you. And it’s like, somebody’s trying to sell something to they’ve heard your story, and they like you and it’s changes the whole sales process.

Jeremy Weisz 42:23

100% like if you sent that client journey arc to that person from Australia, before we go and listen to this, they’re hearing all the objections that someone would have. They’re hearing what it was like to work with it, they were then they’re hearing the after story of what the successes were or the realistic successes, like, not like, Oh, it was an overnight success. It was like realistic, like this took a bit. And so they’re kind of in the frame of mind of with your philosophy and your mission, everything you’re doing. And by the way, this could be us interviewing someone that people have their own clients on the podcast also, and then interview them on what they’re working on. But also, you know, you put in some of the pieces of the journey. Okay, what was it like working with us? Right, and, and you can weave that into their story as well. Yeah.

Michael Simmons 43:18

So funny, it’s just a very different paradigm. And that is important to get.

Jeremy Weisz 43:25

And here’s the thing the people we work with have businesses, they are not like, I want to sell sell sponsorships. You know, that’s very difficult to get the audience base the niche, you know, all that stuff. You know, Joe see, see Joe Rogan, right? selling for whatever, you know, over $100 million to Spotify, or whatever it was, what they don’t see is, you know, or maybe what they do see, or they don’t realize he was a stand up comedian. He got recognized, from standup comedian, he would you know, announcer the UFC, built a following from that he was a talk, a reality talk host talk show host. He built up this following doing all these other things. It wasn’t like an escape. Yeah, and a skill set. It wasn’t like, Oh, I just put up a podcast and I got millions and millions of listeners like he actually, if you look at his career, like he was probably doing gigs, stand up gigs in Podunk towns for years, and years and years and years, building up a following and all these other things.

Michael Simmons 44:30

And so you’ve helped a lot of people go from not having a podcast to having a podcast now. I brought up some of the challenges that I hear when people become a thought leader about there’s, let’s say imposter syndrome, who am I to do this? Or there’s perfectionism or let’s say, not having the topic in mind that hold them up. What else are the things that stop people? Yeah, and what’s your solution to them?

Jeremy Weisz 44:54

Yeah, what stops people is like, you can mention this a little bit ego. There’s millions of podcast or whatever. And people were like there’s, and I was talking to someone the other day, really, really high level person. Okay. And I couldn’t believe I couldn’t, I couldn’t believe he said that it’s like, you know, I don’t know if he’ll give me, you know, I don’t want to mention his name, but like, rated Forbes as a number one in a certain category, like, you know, just very influential in his specific space. And he said, Well, I don’t want to be another just another podcast. I’m like, I go first, though, and I started pushing back on him. Okay, like, and I don’t know him that well. But I was like, Are you serious? I go. And I kind of went off on a tight, a little bit of a tirade. And, and I said, because he’s like, there’s so many other podcasts out there. It’s funny, he just started podcast, but his podcast was just him talking about what, you know, his thought leadership and whatever, whatever his views are. He’s like, I don’t want to be just another like, interview podcast, I go. First of all, I go, the fact that it’s you. It’s not just another, it’s like, you bring your unique if you had a conversation, if you and I had a conversation, Michael, and then you had a conversation with, you know, one of your mentors or whoever, it would be a totally different conversation, and it would go in different directions. So it’s unique to you, and and other person. So I just said, I know, like, oh, there’s, you know, whatever, 10s of millions of blogs out there. So is that gonna stop you from creating another blog? Like, no, you have your own viewpoints, you have your own, you know, vantage point your own niche and go after it. Like Don’t worry about what everyone else is doing is worried about what you’re doing. And again, like that is also in the viewpoint of downloads and subscribers. Well, there’s all these other podcasts, how do I get cut through the noise, don’t worry about that. Just worry about giving to your best relationships, don’t worry about so it kind of goes back in the mindset of worrying about what I consider more vanity metrics for a business. Like I said to someone, there saw a B2B software company. I go, if you get 10 million downloads tomorrow, does that matter for your business? I mean, maybe you can get a sponsorship. There’s like 1% of people who have an e-commerce business in that space that you can serve. So if you get $10 million tomorrow, is that gonna move the needle for businesses? Uh, yeah, you’re right. No, because you’re looking for a specific type of person or partner or relationship in that industry. But the mindset goes back to, I don’t want to do just another like everyone else. And what people have to get over is you have a unique standpoint, you have a unique vantage point, you have a unique way of asking questions or interests, and you just go in that direction. Yeah, yeah.

Michael Simmons 48:05

I feel like if it’s like, if you want to become a top 100 podcast, there might be truth. But I think what like that, just going on, and just being yourself is not going to work for the average person. But that other paradigm, right, I think it’s just, it’s interesting of each of its categories and boundaries. And so I think partially, for me, the thing is, I was thinking about I, what podcast started off s, which is mostly on Apple, there’s the I you know, you see the top 100 podcasts every day, it’s audio, that is very different than what it seems to be becoming, what I’m seeing is you create this audio content, a lot of people now do even video, either actually video actual video, or there’s these tools where it can make it just have the text of the interview going through or, and they put it on different platforms, you could put it on SoundCloud, you can use it as part of your sales funnel, you can chop it up and have social media content, you can have a LinkedIn live, you can have one thing that you were talking about beforehand, before we started, press record is you could take the archives and put those into an evergreen virtual summit.

Jeremy Weisz 49:19

Michael Simmons 49:21

it’s not no longer just this typical idea of what we think about a podcast is and once you think about it in this wider, open way, it really changes it.

Jeremy Weisz 49:31

Totally. And it kind of goes back to what you were saying about what’s the benefits and the benefits it lives on. And you can like you were just saying you can repurpose it, you are repurpose on different platforms. You can repurpose different pieces of it. But the when I think about repurposing and I’m always thinking of my relationship with a person like great I’m repurposing because I love Mike on what he’s doing. Let’s like shoot this everywhere and get his thought leadership out there. It’s less about, I want to get like 100 more followers on LinkedIn, it’s more about thinking about my relationship with you, then followers right? Now that’s like you’re saying that’s gravy, that’s a side benefit that will happen, for sure. Because but it’ll happen because you’re proud of it. And you’ll want to share it with other people. Right as a guest, I have people all the time, they’ll post the interviews on their social media, and go, Hey, this was awesome. And they’re spreading the word on what we do and the interview and the podcast. organically. Yeah.

Michael Simmons 50:40

And so this is going back to mindset again, because that’s, so much of this is a mindset thing. You’re talking a lot about relational, being relational. And, you know, you could copy the tactics, which are great. But really, what I’m hearing is you derive those topics just because those tactics, because you are so relational, you see opportunities for it. So for someone who’s not quite there yet, relational, and you’ve trained now a lot of people to be more relational, what is what’s the number one mistake people make, that they don’t understand? purely about relationship building and network building that you feel like you understand?

Jeremy Weisz 51:18

Yeah, I don’t, I don’t know, if they don’t understand. I think it’s just not Top of Mind maybe as much, you know, um, and I think the biggest thing with with the relationships and just thinking about one, we neglect the relationship, sometimes the relations that are closest to us. So what people are always chasing is the new, shiny, the big people in the industry. And what we neglect sometimes is the people we already know. And so I think it’s more just like, Who is your inner circle of people that you already know, and trust you because it almost becomes Oh, yeah, I already know that person, I want to get this person on the podcast or wherever. And what I do is, it’s very simple exercise, usually about at least once a week, take an hour, and I go through my phone, my text messages on my phone, and I see who have an eye contact in a while just to say hello. Because our closest relationships are usually in our phone. You know, people go over like, okay, I this CRM, or I’m Facebook, or I my LinkedIn connections, like your closest relationships are in your phone. So literally, just don’t neglect. I think that’s the biggest mistake is like neglecting the people who are closest to us. And focus on them first. And then it will just branch out from there. Right? So that’s it like, in the given question, Well, how do you think in a given fashion, it’s more if you just follow what I just said, like, okay, here’s a couple things you could do to give to someone like, you can introduce them to someone, you can post what they’re doing on social media, it’s very tactical things. But what it is, is just giving to someone else, so you can use those tactical things and start to to flex that muscle. Like when you flex that muscle. everyday. It’s just natural to me now. Yeah, because here’s the tactical things you could do to flex your giving muscle every single day. Okay, once a day, I’m gonna post about a friend who’s doing something not about me, here’s what they’re doing. Here’s what I love what they’re doing, or once a week, whatever your frequency is, and just flexing that giving muscle by introducing someone posting about someone else on social media, it’s super easy to do, it takes less than five minutes to do that. Right. And so it’s just flexing that muscle, I think on a daily basis. Like I make maybe 10 to 30 introductions every day.

Michael Simmons 53:53

So really 10 to 30 every day.

Jeremy Weisz 53:55

So I’m flexing that muscle a lot. I

Michael Simmons 53:57

was given almost 10,000 a year.

Jeremy Weisz 54:00

Yeah, I mean, and I mean, I use Text Expander Text Expander I save people’s BIOS and Text Expander Text Expander is like an app where you basically just type in a shortcode and it spits out like a paragraph. So I have Michael Simmons intro Michael Simmons say that my Text Expander when I introduce someone to you or you to them, I just type in. Hey, you know, both your emails intro Michael Simmons. intro, Joe Smith, boom, send it. So it takes less, you know, because if I advice, you know, if you take whatever, let’s say things five minutes or 10 minutes for an intro. That would be an hour to three hours a day, but I can do it in like 10 seconds.

Michael Simmons 54:42

Yeah, I usually use Contactually. Yeah, introductions. Yeah,

Jeremy Weisz 54:47

that’s also great. But point is flexing muscle every single day in some fashion. And by the way, when you introduce people, it’s like it’s it sets up that give loop again. Like when they’re Talking. They’re like, Oh, yeah. Jeremy, how do you know Jeremy? You know, they’re talking about me. So that’s how I do it. But that is going to happen. Like, oh, Michael is amazing. I can’t believe Michael introduced us. Thank you, Mike. You know, I’m gonna have to thank them afterwards. And I even follow up Michael, on that introduction, like a month later to see hey, how’d it go? And I’ll reach out to both people. So it takes a little bit of time. Don’t get me wrong.

Michael Simmons 55:23

Do you spend per day how much is 10 to 30? introductions take?

Jeremy Weisz 55:29

Like, I mean, I’ve already done like three reach outs this morning. I mean, each of them, it may have taken 20 seconds, because I have maybe left him a voicemail like a voice text. And I was like, Hey, I think you should talk to so and so here’s why. Let me know if you want. You want me to introduce you. So I do a double opt in. So it takes even more time.

Michael Simmons 55:48

I’m just opt in intro for others who don’t know is when you get permission from both people that they want to be introduced. Yeah, just go. I had an introducing.

Jeremy Weisz 55:56

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so the each one may take take took me I look, those 24 seconds, it took me to leave that voice text to that person.

Michael Simmons 56:04

That’s it. I never thought about the voice text version of getting the opt in. Yeah.

Jeremy Weisz 56:09

So I mean, like, maybe takes 30 seconds per email or something. Maybe max. Okay. So whatever, you know, 10 to 30 times 30. So it’s not not not that long, right. And

Michael Simmons 56:24

one thing I want to talk about you switching gear, talk about with you switching gears is the actual interview itself. Because Funny enough, we actually we actually haven’t talked about that. It is this the sort of thing where just via an interview is basically two people talking to each other. That’s something we do all the time. And we’re just asking more questions. For most people, do they already have the skills to do interviews? Good enough? And they shouldn’t worry about that? Or is there a certain skill set that this is essential? Before you start? You need to be good at this? Yeah.

Jeremy Weisz 57:02

It’s a great question. I think, you know, yeah, everyone’s gonna be a little bit different. As far as the conversation goes, right? It’s like, if I handed one person a basketball, someone may be more naturally inclined to be athletic, and maybe some people aren’t. Right. So, um, I think the most important thing, and I wonder if you’ll agree with me on this is curiosity. I mean, when you’re curious about someone else, then you’ll want to ask more questions. You’re interested in what they’re working on? And, you know, how do you teach curiosity? I mean, and you’re a big proponent of this, the more research you do, the more you’ll find out about the person and will spark something that you’re curious about. Right? Oh,

Michael Simmons 57:44

so you’ve done hundreds, if not over 1000 episodes of being the producer for mixergy, one of the top business podcasts in the world, where you talk to guests beforehand, you do research, and then for your own podcasts inspired Insider, you’ve done a huge amount. So I remember when we talked a few years ago, and I was crashing at your house with your family. There is about I think you were saying like seven hours per episode, like you’re really going all out on the research of people. Yeah, doing that much, or what’s the good enough there? Yeah,

Jeremy Weisz 58:14

I don’t want to scare people. But like, you know, I definitely over prepare for interviews, if you think about this, Michael, like, the people you have on are your most prized relationships and people and, you know, collaboration partners, so you’re going to want to do research on them. Are you sure? Yeah. You know, so I think at a minimum, you should look at someone’s LinkedIn page in about page at a minimum, right? You know, the bare minimum, because you can like I could say, Oh, you know, so and so what i what i see the other day, I saw this person has six kids, and one of their kids had autism, or has autism. And so just right off the bat, just from looking at their LinkedIn profile, right? And I’m like, that’s really interesting. Like, I really want to ask about that, how they run their business with six. So you’ll find things that like spark your curiosity interest, then that’s just from like, 15 minutes of research, right? Going on their about page and going their LinkedIn page. I go a little bit further and also I you know, the, the disclaimer with them, I do seven or 10 hours research is I let you know, usually watch videos about them or audio. And I do listen in two to three times speed. So like 10 hours is really sometimes three hours of research.

Michael Simmons 59:39

Okay, okay. Um, so picking people that you’d want to do their research on. Exactly. So it’s not like a chore.

Jeremy Weisz 59:46

It’s a great filter. Like if you are dreading to the reason why you’ve been having him on the podcast, right? And so if it’s someone you really like, I remember Wim Hof. I think I did. I don’t know if you know, Wim Hof is but yeah People out there, I probably did 26 hours of research for that interview. equivalent, right? So if I listened to time speech, it was like 12 hours of research. I watched the videos on the BBC watchdog. I mean, it was fascinating. I ended up doing the breathing type thing. So I ended up signing up for his free course, I was something I was generally interested in doing cold showers. And I know, you know that. And in the breathing techniques, it’s something like I wanted to do like, I want to be better at health. And I thought it’d be helpful for me and also would make for great interviews, I was fascinated with him. So but at a minimum, and then at a maximum, like, if the person has a human, how many people like Jeremy, thank you for listening to my or reading my book, like it was? That was most people, they don’t even read the title they like, what do you do? So just a little bit of research goes a long way. Yeah, in researches for me just like Google their name, and their company name. And if you go to the second page of Google, like Jeremy, how did you find out about that you’ve done so much research. I’m like, I went to the second page of Google. I mean, that’s literally what I did. And they they’re like, laughing. I’m like, I’m serious. I just looked at the second page of Google, which, you know, most people aren’t going into one hand, I

Michael Simmons 1:01:18

view it as a continuum. So let’s say on one hand, there’s improvisation, let’s say an extreme. And those people who are successful they are Larry King. Joe Rogan, doesn’t really seem like they ever did. Research or preparation that much. There was episode of Joe Rogan, where he does it with Bill Maher, Bill Maher thing, right? Ma H, er. And Bill Maher was like, have you? Have you read my book? And I was like, No, I haven’t. They just came out with this book. And he’s like, have you done any research? And he’s like, no, I thought we just jump on and talk. And then Bill is laughing because he did all this research. But obviously, it works for Joe, in a way many ways to be in the moment, and improvisational with what the person is saying right there and just letting it evolve. Then on the other end of the spectrum, there’s the hardcore research to me, you know, Howard Stern would be in this category, where every episode, there’s a point where he’s interviewing someone, they’re like, wait, wait, how did you even get that? Like, seriously? Who did you talk to you to get that information, though? The end? You know, Howard Stern, I’ve heard him make fun of Larry King. I’ve just hit his interviewing skills, though. But there’s definitely success stories on both.

Jeremy Weisz 1:02:34

I’m on the obviously the continuum of the Howard Stern, like, yeah, I feel like when you do a ton of research, like it’s gonna be so much better of an interview in respect to personally they get there’s certain things you’re interested in curiosity, certain stories will come out that may not come out. And I’m not saying the other ones, you know, not great, not good. because like you said, there’s that, you know, that flow of, well, who knows what’s going to come of this and you’ll go in a different direction, because you didn’t do the research, which you never would have gone in the research. But that’s just my default is to is to do the research, you know, nerd or I don’t know if you’ll if you listen to Nardwuar, interviews, nerd or does extensive amount of research. So it’s this, you know, Canadian guy, white guy, who’s interviewing I just mentioned, why because he’s like, in the room with like, interviewing all Wu Tang Clan, this like kind of skinny, white guy, Canadian white guy in the room with Wu Tang Clan, and interviewing Snoop Dogg and interviewing Jay Z and interviewing. I mean, all types of artists. But he does an extensive amount of research. Like, he’s like, Hey, Mr. Ghostface, I listened. I watched the interview he did with Wu Tang Clan yesterday. I’ve watched it like two other times, they just I don’t know why it hooks me in. And he’s like, Hey, you know, Mr. Ghostface, or we forgot what he called him. He’s like, you know, he’ll say, you know, we were in third grade. Your teacher was Mrs. Smith, like, what was your experiences? Like? How do you even know, like his research is incredible. And I think

Michael Simmons 1:04:20

now, having done all these students, I think sometimes the amount can be intimidating to that and let me know what you think. I feel like, if the research is causing you to be intimidated and not take action, then don’t don’t do it. Just you’re going to be good enough. Just having basic research, even 30 minutes of research totally. But if you can, and you want to improve it and deepen it once you’re in the habit, then yes, take it up. And really, you agree with that?

Jeremy Weisz 1:04:51

Yes. Here’s what the way I think about it. So that’s why I always say, Hey, here’s the minimum you should do right because it scares people off if I say I typically do at least five hours of research per interview and like I don’t even have five hours, whatever it could be when I’m like washing dishes and listening to something for, you know, 20 minutes. But here’s what I look for when you’re doing the research. Let’s say minimum 15 minutes, and you’re I agree with you just get started. And let’s see, just look at their LinkedIn or about page, I look for two things. One, I look for something I’m curious about, too, I look for something that I can relate to them on. Okay, and so because a big thing about what makes a good interview is you have some rapport with the with the guest,

Michael Simmons 1:05:42

though, and when you can relate is like an uncommon commonality that yeah,

Jeremy Weisz 1:05:45

it could be like, Oh, I saw, you know, like I mentioned, the autism thing. And so I mentioned that when we are just chit chatting, and I go, my wife’s a child psychologist, and we’ve had a lot of conversations around this. It must be it’s like, it’s tough, like, what you what, you know, having a child with special needs. And we were just chit chatting about that before the interview just just as like a person a person thing. Or I may see they were from Minnesota, and I went to Madison, Wisconsin, University, Wisconsin, and there’s a lot of friends who are from Minnesota, and they go, Oh, my, this happened that day, I was talking to someone, they’re like, oh, to my kids actually went to Madison. And so we were just chatting about a commonality that we had. And so I look for the commonality. And I look for something I’m really curious about, huh, yeah, I love it. And so,

Michael Simmons 1:06:37

now you’ve done how many episodes of the Mixergy? Did you have you done? produced?

Jeremy Weisz 1:06:46

I don’t even know. I mean, definitely. I mean, I’m sure I’ve had hundreds of conversations with people.

Michael Simmons 1:06:53

Yeah. Then how many Inspired Insider?

Jeremy Weisz 1:06:55

I mean, I have done. I mean, I’ve done 1000s of interviews, 1000s, because I’ve done them for mine. But like I was saying, we will do thought leadership episodes with other podcasts that we Hi, right in. So, I mean, yesterday, I did five interviews. They were only one was for my podcast.

Michael Simmons 1:07:18

Where do you see all of this going? You really, you’re one of the early people in podcasts. I mean, it’s really a new medium. It’s just getting started.

Jeremy Weisz 1:07:30

podcasts, you know, um, it’s interesting. I mean, I think it’s only going to is Spotify grows and the platform is grow, they’re going to attract more, you know, shows they’re gonna attract more big business doing it, but they’re also going to attract more independent people doing it too. You know, and I kind of see it like, like YouTube, in a sense. So like, and also I think people are gonna start getting discovered through these channels, and being picked up, like, if you look at, I don’t know, the exact like, Justin Bieber story, but I do remember, some agent discovered him on YouTube, just singing or whatever. And I think there’s gonna be people who are going to be discovered, and these people are just going to be running their businesses, like there’s YouTube channels that fully run their business with YouTube and subscribers, and that is going to become more common in the podcasting world as well.

Michael Simmons 1:08:33

And how do you think about it in terms of the niche part of it, the people in the B2B space, Joe Schmoe business owner 10 20 years ago, you know, Jim Collins book, Good to Great came out. And he had this idea of level five leader, a lot of these people are super humble. They don’t do any media. And now, even somebody like Elon Musk, he’s building a lifelong brand, that he applies across different companies to recruit talent to raise money to just express himself. He’s done over 11,000 tweets, which is just

Jeremy Weisz 1:09:06

crazy. Wow,

Michael Simmons 1:09:07

like, how does he find the time? And so and then he’s, there’s all these different formats. Do you think that’s the future where business owners, they should have a brand and be thought leaders or is this just a few?

Jeremy Weisz 1:09:20

What does that look like, there? I’m biased, okay. I’m biased, if you ask me, even before my guy had a service that did this. I would say if you’re a business you’d have, you should have a podcast period. Like if you think about a business, would you ever not have a website? Like that? seems ridiculous, right? You’re not even legit. If you don’t have a website, you know, like, hey, Michael, what’s your like, I don’t have one you’re like, Hmm, I don’t know about this guy. So I feel that well, it’ll happen or not, you know, but I think every business should have a podcast and getting Thought Leadership, get their team’s thought leadership, get people from the industry on. And even if it’s just their thought leadership and their team’s thought leadership, it’s valuable, right, because different types of, of episodes you can have. But that’s my, that’s my opinion, I think if you’re a business, just like you have a website, you should have a podcast and talk about your thought leadership. And, um, you know, profile people in the industry.

Michael Simmons 1:10:29

It’s almost like the 21st century front door. So if you’re a store, you know, in the in the past, you don’t have a website, it’s just before the internet, your front door people are walking by they go, and that’s your front door. Then with the beginning of version, one of the internet is, let’s say it’s just a website, a static website, then number three is just like say social media and social media profiles. And then I feel like I do feel like this for of having deeper media. So having a book having articles, that having podcasts, there’s so much more depth to it, that you really, that you build a deeper relationship versus just somebody following you on Twitter. You’re not going to get that right away. And so it’s interesting I that does, I’ve never heard it said, like you said it, but I do see that it’s a good point you make, you know,

Jeremy Weisz 1:11:17

I feel and we’ve worked with companies like to build out more of a multimedia approach. So like, let’s say, the proliferation of prolific blogs, they’re prolific articles, I’m like, why don’t we turn them into a channel. And so actually, we’ve had clients where we will interview them on their top 15 blogs of all time, and we’ll interview them in a interview style video, and we will take that video, we will put it on YouTube, we will make it into a podcast, and then we’ll get the transcription for them. And so we’ll build out that already amazing post I have, and then put a video and an audio player and a transcription on to it. And now they have a multimedia approach. Now, all those pieces are on different channel, like it’s on their website, but now it’s on YouTube. It’s also on the you know, Spotify, iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, and there’s a transcription, you know, SEO benefit to it. So there’s a lot of ways to build out like a multimedia approach, instead of just one channel.

Michael Simmons 1:12:28

Yeah, and packaging and repackaging. So for us with, with articles, you can combine articles into a book, and the books don’t have to be 200 pages anymore. A lot of people value shorter books that are just a few hours to read.

Jeremy Weisz 1:12:41

I just got this from Perry Marshall.

Michael Simmons 1:12:44

Yeah. It’s,

Jeremy Weisz 1:12:46

I loved it, because it’s 36 pages. Yeah, it’s a book, but it’s like a workbook. So like the people who follow you, or your program is like, you don’t have to create like a massive. So this is like, I was excited about this. Because people probably the mindset issue around and Michael’s like, oh, if it’s only like 40 pages are gonna people are gonna, I’m actually as a reader in consumer, I’m like loving this, because I get a feeling to finish something. Exactly. So anyways, Yeah, totally. It’s

Michael Simmons 1:13:18

fascinating that what you’re saying there, I actually had never Well, I’ve seen a few examples. But when I was like, I should do this more. Because one hand, you could have a podcast, that’s just audio, you could turn that to all these different platforms, you could chop it up in social media. And then the other hand, you could go from article text, to podcast and do an interview. So if you had all the different ways, then you can have tons of arrows. And the nice thing I think, is that no matter who you are, how you prefer expressing yourself, how you your voice, his style, you can find a way of expressing yourself in the world today and building that.

Jeremy Weisz 1:13:55

So okay,

Michael Simmons 1:13:57

here we are about an hour and a half and getting there. So for people who want to learn more about your service, you have a service that you work with business owners, to help them create their own podcast, where they can focus on what they do best, which is recruiting the guests that are perfect for them having an interview, and you basically do everything else. Can you tell them more about this and tell the story of it?

Jeremy Weisz 1:14:23

Yeah, I mean, if you have questions, they go to Rise25.com but essentially, what we do is we’re an easy button for people for their podcast. And so we help with the strategy and execution. We want the business owner, entrepreneur, CEO, whoever it is running their business and building the relationships, that’s it. And then we handle everything else. So we did everything else. Everything else means like one making sure the strategy is on point. So we brainstorm who are the best under like 17 different categories who are the best guests. You know, referral partner strategic partner social proof like you know, There’s there’s many different categories. we brainstorm that and from there, we brainstorm what thought leadership episodes they should be producing. And from there, everything else means like even the thought leadership, we get on with them, we record with them. If they’re doing it interviewing someone else, all they have to do is do the interview, upload that file to a folder in Google Drive, and then we put it on their website, we write the post, we actually put it across all the podcast channels, if it’s video, we take the video, we put it on YouTube, we embed it in the blog. So everything else around getting it out there distributing it, leaving connected to social media for them. So it goes on social media channels. So they just have to develop the relationship, have the conversation, and give us the file. And we want to make sure the strategies point. So we’re always checking in on making sure they have the right content, the right guests on the show.

Michael Simmons 1:15:57

And I really value that check in that we have that’s just Well, number one, it’s helped me go from talking about a podcast for six years, or however many to now actually having a podcast, we haven’t officially launched yet. But I’ve done six or seven interviews, we have everything set up to go once we get to 10 we’ll launch it, that’s just a really good feeling to go from zero to one and something.

Jeremy Weisz 1:16:19

I mean, we just baby step people through me hold their hand through the whole process, because it can be an overwhelming process, you know, so

Michael Simmons 1:16:27

and then I think the other thing is, I think a lot of what you guys provide, you know, there’s accountability on those calls. But also, it’s the mindset of just, you kind of just need to hear it over and over about the strategies and the tactics, and then you layer on more and more complexity. There’s a lot of tactics you mentioned and ways of thinking so thank you. Yeah, happy client. And also hate to say that and just appreciate you I are my one of my dear friends. And thank you for being one of the first guests on the podcast. Yeah, likewise, I am honored like I totally appreciate you Thank you. Awesome, the Rise25.com to learn more about Jeremy’s business or inspiredinsider.com to learn about his podcast. All right. Thank you, Jeremy.

Jeremy Weisz 1:17:13

Thank you.

Outro 1:17:15

Turning Your Ideas into a Profitable Product with Jack Butcher

May 12, 2021 // by michaeld // Podcast // No Comments

Jack Butcher is the Founder of Visualize Value, an agency that helps other businesses turn their ideas into a scalable profit. Jack is also the Founder of Opponent, a marketing and advertising company that uses design to drive results.

Visualize Value began as a Twitter account focusing on visual design to sell concepts to their clients. Now, Jack utilizes multiple platforms to help businesses and creatives design their brand, build their network, and share their ideas.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

Jack Butcher discusses how he started Visualize Value.
What moved Visualize Value from 0 followers to over 150,000?
Using Twitter and other social media platforms to endorse your brand.
Finding your own strengths and optimizing them for your business.
Jack talks about balancing quantity and quality with deadline-driven work.
Redefining your work environment.
What are the powerful habits of creators?
Jack’s “build once, sell twice” methodology.
Creating a timeline for your goals—and how to achieve them.
The future of online education and digital product marketing.
Jack shares his advice for entrepreneurs looking to sell their products.

In this episode…

As a novice entrepreneur, it can be difficult to gain a following and get your business widely recognized. According to Jack Butcher, who has successfully launched two of his own companies, you can build off of your unique ideas and promote yourself through digital platforms. So how exactly do you begin your launch and build your brand?

In this episode of The Michael Simmons Show, host Michael Simmons sits down with Jack Butcher, Founder of Visualize Value and Opponent. Together, they discuss Jack’s entrepreneurial success, and how it can be attributed to his optimization of Twitter, and his expert strategies for utilizing social media to promote your brand and measure your progress. Plus, Jack shares how you can turn your ideas into a product, stand out from other businesses, and build your network to develop your brand.

Resources Mentioned in this episode

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by my company, Seminal.

We help you create blockbuster content that rises above the noise, changes the world, and builds your business.

To learn about creating blockbuster content, read my article: Blockbuster: The #1 Mental Model For Writers Who Want To Create High-Quality, Viral Content

Episode Transcript

Intro 0:02

Michael Simmons 0:14

I’ve been really looking forward to this one for a while. Today, I present you Jack Butcher, I first started following Jack, just about two years ago, near when he’s just starting writing online. Though he started in January 2019, just creating quotes, and then visualizing those quotes for top thought leaders. He did that for about six months. And then he started doing his own quotes. And just about a year and a half later, the first year, he didn’t make any money. The second year, he made over a million dollars in revenue. And this next year 2021, he set the really top that. And he’s an example of number one, the power of consistency, and just shipping things and just getting better. And it’s awesome, because on Twitter, you can really see that improvement over time. And then number two is an example of the blockbuster method, even though he’s just doing a visual and a quote, which theoretically, could be done very quickly. From this interview, you can really see he spent hours just to create one sentence or two sentences. And we’re also talking about how he’s monetized his knowledge so effectively, and his skill set, and how you can too. And then finally, I think Jack is a great example of what I call craft innovation. He didn’t just pick an existing format, like long form articles or videos, and just do them better. He’s created his own category, he’s a category of one, if you haven’t already seen his work. It’s very distinct. So you actually probably have seen it. Because right away, you see, okay, that’s a Jack Butcher style. So without further ado, I present to you one of the most in depth interviews that Jack has done, and you’re gonna take a lot away from this. I know I did. Jack, welcome to the podcast.

Jack Butcher 2:09

Thank you for having me on.

Michael Simmons 2:10

I am so so excited on multiple levels. And so I want to jump right into it. So it’s January 2019. You’re about 30 years old. You’ve been in New York City for eight years. And you’d been through a bunch of agency jobs until you started your own agency. And then in January 2019, you start a Twitter account called @Visualize Value, where you’re creating these visual, simple ideas through through tweets, you’re basically starting from scratch on it. And your goal for my understanding is to be like a proof of work for your agency clients. That’s right. Can you walk me to where you were at the time? or What the What did you make a commitment to just do it once a day? Where were your mindset, then?

Jack Butcher 3:03

Sure. So the the project itself, as you rightly diagnosed was basically a response to this like unwieldy agency beast that I’ve created, right? saying yes to all of these, like different projects in different industries with different deliverables and just a crazy mess of stuff that was obviously impacting our spending my time, stress levels off the charts, all of those things. And the process initially was basically a byproduct of the the agency work that was really like moving the needle was the like, visual design stuff we were doing behind the scenes. So we would like depict these ideas visually, that would sell a concept or explain an industry to one of our clients. And more often than not, this stuff didn’t actually, like ever see the market was all the stuff that we use to communicate our value proposition. So it’s like, hang on, there’s something here, and it kind of comes naturally. So maybe I can turn that into a product by itself. And the initial attempt to kind of share that work was let me like take these projects and put them out into the world. So it was like is how to visualize a supply chain or here’s how to visualize the reason why this cryptocurrency is going to succeed in this market for examples like these really dense, only really applicable to people who are in that industry, people are looking for a very specific thing. And then one day, it just sort of hit me Why not? Why not use the same methodology of visualizing ideas on ideas that are more widely appreciated and likeable. So that’s the shift came as like, Okay, what have I read what have been the ideas that have moved the needle for Me, how can I, you know, put them through this same filter and potentially create this aesthetic that is going to function as?

Michael Simmons 5:10

portfolio almost. Yeah.

Jack Butcher 5:13

Exactly. And and like, even though we had proof of work in the industry specific applications, it just wasn’t compelling enough to get people to be like, I want that done for me, because they didn’t I, this is anecdotal, but I don’t think they experienced the same epiphany when it’s like not subject matter that is relevant to them. They care

Michael Simmons 5:33

about. Interesting, interesting, really interesting. And so did you make a commitment that, Okay, I’m going to do this for a year, or I’m just going to do 15 pieces, or what was your commitment?

Jack Butcher 5:44

Yeah, yeah. So I think, a loose commitment of at least one a day to begin with, I think, actually launched it with 20, or 30. So I just like I had this, like sketch document that I’d built out 20 or 30 of them. And then I was like, I’m gonna put this out into the world. And I just started exploring, getting back into Twitter as a social network, I was doing all of my business development on Facebook before that organically. And that’s like, it’s such a closed network in comparison to something like Twitter website, this thing could just be amplified and right ends of the earth. So Twitter was like, okay, maybe it makes sense to do that. Also, a lot of the ideas were,

Jack Butcher 6:28

Were belong to people that had Twitter accounts. So if I could take an idea that somebody had that, you know, has a Twitter account, visualize that reference them in that idea, then they see it, you know, maybe they share it, maybe they don’t, but that continual process of like, finding great ideas of people that are already in the network, building visual representations of those ideas, and then, you know, potentially having them amplify them was what grew the network. Yeah. bigger and bigger.

Michael Simmons 6:55

And yeah, question for you how many Twitter followers you basically had zero followers for Visualize Value? I’m guessing. Yeah. Did you get those initial people? Did you just send it to your friend?

Jack Butcher 7:07

No, I think honestly, the, the trick was a, like I just mentioned, finding people who would see it, like it. And then, you know, that would be exposed to their networks, which likely appreciate their ideas, which further amplifies that idea. So you’re kind of doing something this this is like a term coined retro actively but the permissionless apprenticeship to the idea that you can go and take somebody

Michael Simmons 7:39

interesting

Jack Butcher 7:40

say, Hey, I’m going to spend a day with this person’s ideas, and I’m going to turn them into something like I’m going to add some context to them, or I’m going to perform a service on behalf of this person to help spread these ideas whether you’re, you know, video editor or writer.

Michael Simmons 7:57

Do you literally started from 01 second? I think I said I said something on that I activated my Siri phone. Alright, I gotta turn it off. Okay.

always listening. Alright, now it’s activated one of my YouTube. There we go. All right. I love I love Siri sometimes, and not all the time. All right, it’s off. Okay, yeah, keep going.

Jack Butcher 8:37

So I’m trying to remember I was

Jack Butcher 8:43

Started from zero on that account, and really the network effect of tapping into you know, taking that permissionless apprenticeship model and finding people who I can essentially work for free create stuff for them on the back of their ideas. There’s a reciprocity there, where they’re connected me to their networks. And then those ideas obviously resonate within those networks, because these people are following sets of people because they appreciate their ideas. And then you just have this calm, okay,

Michael Simmons 9:12

if that makes sense. So normally, somebody might, when they’re starting a Twitter account, just invite all their friends or their network there and say, Hey, I’m creating this account, check it out. You basically didn’t do that. And you just, you attack other people’s work. And then the assumption was, you’d be able to create enough value where they’d want to retweet it themselves, because it helps them are overweight. And I went back to your early post, I can see every day. I think you’re posting one thing a day, and you’re tagging someone in everyone.

Jack Butcher 9:39

Yeah, yeah. So that was and there’s like an outsize return on like one or two of those two, you know, like, like when the

Michael Simmons 9:47

ball tweeted or Right,

Jack Butcher 9:49

exactly. It’s like this huge, like, disparate outcomes and all of them but one of the interesting things I think is obviously the the advantage accrews with the amount you post, so it’s like the credibility of the page grows with the number of people that follow it. And obviously, the recognition of the style grows with how many times you’ve posted. So it’s really difficult to get that uptake in the beginning. Because, you know, this might be a six hour project that somebody is going to abandon. And I think there’s like, you know, there are a lot of these tactics on social networks that are trying to bait big accounts into engaging with their cons. Yeah. And it’s Yeah, I feel very like, yeah, it’s a very nuanced thing, right has to legitimately be something that either they can produce themselves, or they haven’t produced themselves, or has, you know, a, like, has a benefit to them sharing. So yeah,

there’s an interesting nuance there. And it’s like, in hindsight, I had no idea that it would, it would reach the number of people it would in the in that short amount of time, but clearly, there was something there. So just kept playing with it.

Michael Simmons 11:05

Okay, if you have questions for you, at this point, how long is it taking you per image?

Jack Butcher 11:12

About probably about 15 20 minutes?

Michael Simmons 11:14

Okay. 15 20 minutes. And so let’s say it’s February, so far, you posted 30 images? Did you have any tangible benefits there that you remember where you were? Or does that and I only ask this, because I’ve noticed people have a lot of trouble starting things going from zero to one. And there’s, as I called the valley of death, where you’re basically working in obscurity, and you don’t really have any external tangible benefits are not made. The show does curious is What kept you going.

Jack Butcher 11:45

Yeah, so the at this point, the agency business is still kind of on its last legs, you have a few agency clients, and

Michael Simmons 11:55

and how many Sorry to interrupt you there, but just get the contact? How many hours per week? were you working on the agency at this point?

Jack Butcher 12:01

At least 40 or 50? I would think, yeah, those are full time thing. And this was like, this was an attempt originally to just like pivot the work of the agency to be more specific. So to get, you know, to be able to do twice as much in those 40 hours, as I was doing a month ago, but obviously, the direction changed with how the project laid out. In February of I think we probably had started to get inquiries from people that wanted, you know, Visualize Value as a service. So the initial hypothesis was correct that if we just pivot to this one thing, we’re going to create enough demand for consulting services that are refined, like constrained purely to this, this deliverable, which is the set of visuals that that articulate value in some, like non visual concept.

Michael Simmons 13:03

And that’s amazing that so you’re proving your hypothesis, how many within that first month? How many do you think you got just a handful of inquiries? Yeah, I would science or old clients are actually complete strangers,

Jack Butcher 13:15

some, like some people in my network, but the majority was cold outreach on Twitter. And

Jack Butcher 13:25

That probably translated to one or two service clients. A lot of people assumed that, I think, like the difference in income from the agency, job, I’d work because I had, like a decent roster of clients worked in corporate and like, these are like six bigger projects that you’re working on in that world. And then when you come over to like soliciting business on the network, like Twitter, people expect that they’re gonna be able to hire you for 25 bucks an hour. All right, yeah, that took a long time to kind of make that transition and build up the, like, build up the kind of train the market that this is, you know, this is a service worth paying for. So I a lot of those early inquiries, like, Hey, can I buy the use this for free? Or can I like, I have 50 bucks, can you help me make a pitch deck, like stuff like that early on, which is like, discouraging in some ways? Because, you know, you’re like, there’s a market really valued this enough that I could live off it. But it’s also, I think, a byproduct of just how early you are and like, you’re not really attracting people who are perhaps more serious or more established, because you’re only a month into this experiment, if that makes sense.

Michael Simmons 14:49

Yeah, and at this point, are you like, is your mindset like, Okay, we got a few inquiries at this price. I just keep doing this, then you’re fast forwarding. We’d grow at this rate in a year from now. We’ll be at this size, or were you just focusing more day to day and showing up and enjoying the process?

Jack Butcher 15:05

I think there’s I think there’s a hybrid definitely enjoyed the process. Like the the, the act of making these things was just very satisfying. And, you know, building the portfolio up on the side, it was almost like this hedge that worked either way, right? It’s like, I’m getting better at my craft by doing this every day. If other people see it, and like, I win new business off the back of it, then that’s a win win, right? So constructed this environment where your skills are improving, regardless of the direct outcome. I think that has a part to play in. Why I kept going, because like, if you think about it that way, you really can’t lose.

Michael Simmons 15:46

It’s just right. You enjoy and you’re learning though.

Jack Butcher 15:49

Yeah. And you get like, if you want to, like, talk about the like, headedness stick piece of it, as well as like a dopamine trigger associated with posting every day, which is like you can leverage that the right way. You know, I don’t know, there’s different view on this from every angle depends, like what you subscribe to. But there’s definitely a poll there that keeps you coming back and publishing like, the insane. Like, that’s really

Michael Simmons 16:19

Likes, retweets

Jack Butcher 16:20

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that that becomes a game, right? It’s like any video game where like, you want to keep getting to the next level, keep getting your experience points up. And this is why all this stuff is so addictive. And you’re kept in that engaging loop, because you can measure your performance day to date, they have some semblance of progress happening.

Michael Simmons 16:44

And in some of your posts, you shown the dashboards of what you know, this turned out to be a good post I’m looking at the stats that I took from that is you’re looking at the stats. And there my question for you is, when you’re looking at the stats are seeing the progress we just seeing, what were you really looking at the feel that sense of progress we’re looking at, okay, the number of likes increasing? Is it the like rate that for every 1000 impressions, we get x number of like,

Jack Butcher 17:10

Yeah, I think that’s like, there’s like some gut measurement there where you can tell like, this is like the speed at which this thing grows, you actually had a conversation with someone who runs a massive meme account last week. And they have this methodology where they post memes to Twitter individually. And then by the they look at the ratio of likes per impressions. And then the ones that pass a certain threshold, they compile into a sequence and put them on YouTube. The others like Twitter is just this really like powerful valid, like content validation tool. And then you know, you can use what you learn there to perform like the tweak your performance and other platforms. For me, though it was it was definitely just pure, like vanity metrics as some consideration, which is, you know, how many people like it, how many people retweet it, retweets are obviously, such a powerful endorsement, it’s like, I am essentially putting my name behind this thing and amplifying it. So that’s huge. We also have an Instagram account. And I’ve been, like interested to see the Save stats on posts. So you can see who just saving stuff, which that’s really interesting. And that sometimes vastly differs from the front end metrics. So you might have a, something that leans a little bit more education or a little bit more like you have to sit with it a little bit longer to get the takeaway. And generally those gets saved quite heavily, but not necessarily amplified or, like liked, publicly at the same volume. So there are different metrics, I think, obviously, like when you have a call to action, like the click through rate is a massive way to measure how compelling your words and images and assets are, which you know, that’s what drives sales and conversion ultimately. So that’s a, that’s an interesting one. And that can vary like just so enormous lis it’s almost bizarre, much of a lever, those little like, you know, the sequence of words can drastically change the outcome of a

Michael Simmons 19:19

post. One thing I’ve noticed is that when people are starting an account, you’re going out, you’re obviously start with a smaller number of people. You can see, okay, I got to like, and that that doesn’t feel that exciting. You know, they’re like, Oh, this is failure. versus when I look at it, I think about the like ratio, that if they got you I’m just making this number up for let’s say, 2%. Maybe it’s just a big platform that’s actually really good. It shows that they’re doing good and they just need to keep doing it and overtime is gonna build up. Is there a metric for beginners that you feel like it’s good one to see? And what’s a benchmark that you think, you know, given that Twitter’s here or Yeah, Twitter? What should I

Jack Butcher 19:59

think That’s a good framework, I think. I don’t know what the number should be, I think, but like contextualizing it based on impressions is, is small life is a good way to think about it. I think the real measure is like, you have to ask yourself, like, Am I getting better at what I’m doing as a result of undergoing this practice every day. And that’s like, that requires more work on your part to not rely on the external measurement that will come as a result of this process making you better at your craft. I think this, I don’t even remember where I heard this, or what were the reference is from? Like, if you chase the thing directly, you don’t get the thing, right. Yeah, it has to be like a byproduct of you becoming more focused on the craft or becoming better at the thing you’re doing. And you can see examples of this everywhere. You know, like, if you’re a, you also like run the risk of you run the risk of building something. That is, I think, I think after a period of time, you can definitely you can start to maybe, um

Jack Butcher 21:24

maybe this is not totally accurate. But I feel as though I know how a post is going to perform now before I post them. Like, you kind of get the the instinct for the platform. And that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s what I should be doing every time because you’re kind of building a business that, you know, potentially is taking you in a direction that you don’t want to be going right, right. Yeah. There are definitely considerations on like, internally that I think are more important than, you know, just finding ways to get people to like and amplify your stuff. Because if that’s your goal, just go and find the most outrageous thing you can and stop

Michael Simmons 22:03

me copying it. Right, right. Yeah, I think how we measure progress is really underestimated. And I started to actually realise this, because as you teach, you know, learning how to learn and mental models, and a lot of the things that, as one advances are the highest leverage, feel like you’re wasting time. So on a scale of a day, it feels like spending two hours reading a book feels like a waste of time. But if you’re gonna use that for the rest of your life, or if you take a break or going for a walk, it feels like a waste of time, I’ve noticed that a lot of the top performers or heads of industries, they like Ray Dalio will stop a meeting. And right away, we’re gonna solve the issue rather than walking over it, that they’ve learned how to have their measurement of progress, tied to something that’s often a little bit more abstract. You’re talking about the internal feel, and long term, not just whatever is most obvious in the short term. And you said something interesting on the sandbar podcast related to this, that stuck out to me, he said, the gold thing puts me on an aggressive path, where I have to make compromises for an arbitrary reason. And there’s no five year thing that here’s what needs to happen for you.

Jack Butcher 23:17

Yeah, and I got it, you know, I’ve been asked that many times, I think it’s like, it’s kind of the almost the antithesis of how this project started, and how it kept going, you know, like that. The reason it started was, like, backed out of a lifestyle goal was like, I’m burning out, I need to fix something, like, let’s do, you know, let’s narrow our focus and try and like really dial in the type of people we work with and type of work that we do. And that, you know, led led me to another set of circumstances which I asked another question. It’s like, okay, we’re still doing service stuff. Now. No, this is we’re at capacity, how do we get out of that? So there’s always like, things that the journey is kind of teaching you man, right, I would say change, like, change the guard. And you know, in some cases, like, if you’re looking for a cure for cancer is a different, there’s a different game and you’re trying to launch rockets to Mars, different game as you go. This, like this project is as a combination of like, you know, figure out how to balance like, producing, producing things that really move the needle and people’s lives, but also, like, figure out how to optimize the business against like, a decent lifestyle in the process. So it’s like setting a goal any further than a couple of months or setting a goal that’s like, like you say, like some type of like, arbitrary number, it just, it doesn’t really make a ton of sense to do that. Like, if you investors, if you had like, things to hit, because you have external pressure telling you to hit them, then I think some people operate Well, I think I operate well under those circumstances. But I don’t know if I would drive the business in a direction where I would enjoy it in the same way as I do now.

Michael Simmons 25:17

It’s very easy to create a business that you don’t enjoy being an I’ve been in there. It’s like trying to start a business for the freedom but then you’re the you’re your own worst boss. Yeah,

Jack Butcher 25:26

yeah. Yeah. And I like the agency model, just because that’s the world that I came from was like, I tried like, five, six different iterations of that model and just could not get it right. And you know, some people do it. They love it. They like hiring people that like all that stuff. I think like acknowledging some of your strengths and like optimizing around, you’re like, how are you most effective in any given day? If your business doesn’t align with that, then you’re in trouble? Hmm.

Michael Simmons 26:02

So what I hear is, you’re optimizing the things, the leading indicators for you or the lifestyle. Now, is that what it takes for you to have the optimized day enjoy the work, then also, output seems like you are getting your, okay, one day, one time a day. And then the learning one is really interesting. Because a lot of people, you know, there’s different research, like, you don’t actually learn from experience past a certain point, we reached this okay plateau, where we’re good enough to get the result like typing, and then you don’t improve. Sometimes we have to, this is where Anders Ericsson works to come in and deliberate practice, we have to structure things in a way where we can keep growing, what did it I can see a huge improvement from as the beautiful thing about Twitter, I can go back to your first post, and just see the changes, though. There’s parts that are the same, but you’ve also really improved a lot. What about how you set up the work allows you to keep improving you think?

Jack Butcher 26:57

I think a lot of it after a after the period of just hitting it consistently comes down to like, your judgement improving, right? Like after a certain point, like once you know, this idea is resonating? Is it more important that you post every day? Or is it more important that you post things that you’re very proud of? So it’s almost like that balance shifts, it’s like when you’re in those like, like amateur putting the reps in learning the platform, like you have a smaller audience of people way more forgiving earlier in the journey, then, you know, you you reach a point, I think, where you can take more time with your decisions. And you know, convincing yourself that it’s okay to take time with your decisions is kind of the biggest mental barrier to like, this is what you mentioned before, about, you know, taking a walk or sitting down and reading a book for eight hours, or just doing nothing on one day, right, as opposed to just ploughing on when you know you’re not in a great space to produce something is like, it’s a really hard instinct to resist as well, like, especially the environment I came from. It’s like, deadline, you have to produce this. Like, if you don’t, we’re not going to get paid. So like, yeah, becoming okay with that is really like I think mentally one of the weirdest and hardest barriers to overcome, especially if you, like grew up and learn those skills in a totally different environment.

Michael Simmons 28:31

Yeah, yeah, I got a great tweet on this. That was just the three steps, one, focus on quantity at first, then find something that resonates step two, and then focus on quality. It’s interesting how the advice changes based on the step. It’s not a universal, always focus on one or the other.

Jack Butcher 28:48

Yeah, I think that that idea is, again, like applied in hindsight, I think the maybe the most famous example is a Steve Jobs thing as they collect all of these experiences, and then connect the dots looking backwards. Yeah, and one of the things like I actually, I’m curious about is, like, when I started my career in 2010 11, ish, like Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, they’re all like in their infancy, right? They’re not, they’re not pulling you off your like, main focus for eight hours a day, like we are potentially now, right? Like these social networks engineer to the point where people live on them at this point. Yeah. And it’s very hard to build these skills, I think that I think generally take like periods of intense focus and challenge and all of those, like, experiences that you you kind of stitch together as a product of working the job or starting a different business or whatever else. And I can’t, I sort of acknowledge my advantage in that respect where I didn’t have that distraction when I started, and now I can leverage the stuff I learned when I wasn’t distracted in this new environment. Does that make sense?

Michael Simmons 30:07

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, it does. And so on an improvement rate, you know, I think number one, I could you know, you’re in a medium where you’re getting direct feedback all the time. Yeah. Versus that you could be another world, maybe there’s parts of the agency world where you create something, and it’s never sees the light of day. So you don’t even know if it works. You’re getting feedback all the time, then you mentioned quality that at a certain point, not just about output, and like, Oh, I need to get this out today. But it’s also How could I make this really good? And also just being a producer rather than a consumer? Did you do any research where you start? You read books on this or found that books or quotes and how to get better? Or was that were those the three main ingredients?

Jack Butcher 30:49

majority of his practice? Yeah, so I think like the, the body of like, ideas that began the project, were all things that I’d like stumbled into that had, like, slowly helped me change my mind and, like, helped me like, optimize the business very gradually, none of them was like, there was no one magic bullet or one like single idea that changed everything. But I think another try, like, I’ve tried to figure out what it is about, like how you select the ideas, and I think it’s a it’s really about like, this is this is true of writing or visuals or anything is like, if you can take an idea and essentially filter it through all of the experiences, you’ve had to like to, like stress test, essentially, it’s like, okay, I’ve written this statement. Is that true in this environment, where I spent 10 years is that true in this environment, I spent two years is that true in the context of this project, I think a lot of those things, like your ability to like stress test, an idea against all these different experiences you’ve had, the experience when you’re having it in the moment may not feel useful, but it’s going to, like improve your ability to write things that are more that resonate with more people, because you’re collecting experiences that other people are going to be able to relate to.

Michael Simmons 32:21

Right, the one that when I hear that, I feel like in general, I love the mental model of feedback loops. And there’s external feedback loops. But then there’s internal feedback loops. Edward de Bono has the idea of six hats that you can wear. If you’re editing your own work, you can look at it from different perspectives. And even though it’s still you, you can still get unique insights from each perspective. So are you kind of using that approach of your credit, different feedback perspectives on your own work? Yeah,

Jack Butcher 32:50

you know, I don’t I think I’ve heard of that. But I haven’t studied it in any depth. But yeah, I think one of the other things on public platforms is like, try and shred this from the perspective of your biggest critic. Now, if I imagine that I’m, like, I believe the exact opposite of what I believe as a person. And I’m reading this thing that I just wrote, how would I tear it apart? Like, what would I, you know, how would I approach like this assembling this idea? And if there’s a really easy way to destroy it, then throw it out? Yeah.

Michael Simmons 33:25

Yeah. devil’s

Jack Butcher 33:26

advocate person. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So that’s, I think that’s a powerful, a powerful model for your writing, too, which would just be one of those other hats.

Michael Simmons 33:37

Yeah, you know, James Clear had a list of the tips for tweeting. And what I liked was just after you write the post, pick it let it sit for 10 minutes, then just try to make it better. When you were focused, you mentioned you start to focus more on quality. Is there any little things like that, that helps you just go a little bit further quality wise?

Jack Butcher 34:00

Yeah, I think this comes back to a theme we’re discussing earlier is like, the writing of the tweet is really not the work right there. Right? All the work is happening in your head. And then the, the writing of the tweet is really just the, like, the transcription of the idea as you’ve like, built it in your mind. So I think being okay with like, yeah, I’m gonna go on a walk for 45 minutes. And if, like, if I’ve produced three sentences on that wall, they’re gonna be better than like, me sit down at the keyboard for 45 minutes and just like going back and forth and editing and editing. So I think like, that that redefinition of like where work happens has been big for me, like especially coming from like billable hours environment, whereas like, if you’re not in software x with your screen recorded and you know, doing six hours of work, you’re not working. I think Morgan Housel says this as well as like most of the process of writing A book is like lounging around thinking about how to connect this idea with that idea of flicking through a book. So yeah, I think becoming okay with the fact that you’re working, even when just wandering around and like trying to refine the structure of a sentence in your head for 10 minutes is the most valuable work you’re doing. It’s not the act of just putting it into the keyboard.

Michael Simmons 35:23

Really interesting. And it’s hard I find, you know, part of what’s hard about learning how to measure progress, based on abstract or not directly, at least to be but kind of when it’s in your head, just taking a walk, it’s a little bit unpredictable, is dealing with the guilt of like, Am I just joking? am I fooling myself? And yeah, was that is that was that hard? How did you work through that of get convinced, okay, these walks can be productive for me. And I think you start to collect

Jack Butcher 35:51

evidence that they’re productive after a while. So like, if the, if the habit produces a thing that you put into an external feedback loop, and you get good feedback, then you just like, look back and be like, okay, that thing produced this asset that I can eventually validate externally. And, and you know, a lot of the intangibles are just like, do I feel better on any given day, if I do this versus, you know, force myself to try and write something when I haven’t got it fully figured out? There’s some, you know, I don’t have enough of a biological understanding of how it works. But the idea that the levels of processing in your brain are like, it’s like defragging a disk of some sort, like, you’re not going to write great stuff. If you’re scrolling through a feed, you lose constantly having like, a new idea inserted, every, you know, half a second or less, subconsciously, just like keeping your mind very, like surface level, in essence, and then going out where you don’t have all of those like inputs and distractions. I think, you know, neurons start to connect and fire and you come up with a lot of sounding stuff.

Michael Simmons 37:11

Malcolm Gladwell has said that for every hour of writing, there’s three hours of thinking, what do you think that ratio is for you? If it takes 15 minutes for you to

Jack Butcher 37:21

put it on Twitter? Probably 50 to one.

Michael Simmons 37:25

Really? 50? zero to one?

Jack Butcher 37:27

Yeah.

Michael Simmons 37:29

Wow.

Jack Butcher 37:29

I don’t do a lot of walking, though. Yeah, a lot of doing nothing.

Michael Simmons 37:35

And you when you’re let’s say, You’re going on a walk, do you go with a notebook, and you start with your five sentences, I want to, tweak and get better? Or

Jack Butcher 37:45

it’s just I know, it’s weird. I think it’s like, I think the interesting thing is like, it will be a there’ll be some like real life trigger for like, how can I surmise this thing that I’m feeling at the moment, right? Like, whether that’s something that, like a change you implement in the business or a mistake you make, or like a friend reaches out to you with some dilemma that they’re facing, or you know, someone in your family is going through something like that, to me is like, the one thing that’s occupying my mind while I’m like not directly doing something else, like reading something else, like whenever your mind is, like, disengaged, in some respect, feels to me like I start going into this mode of like, Well, how do I? How would I package this in a way that makes it relevant to more people? It’s the same, like process, I think, is the visual. You know, how do you codify a concept into a visual that makes it more accessible? I think that that same process is happening says like, there’s no specific strategy, like my phones in my pocket, are that maybe that’s a way to say it, write that down. You know, and then just like, keep iterating on that, and then maybe that leads you down another path, you write something else down. I honestly wish I had more of the like, long form. I wish it was, like more attractive to me. I do enjoy it when I get into it. But I think pulling on some of those threads and writing articles off the back of some of those ideas could be another powerful habit to get to work up to.

Michael Simmons 39:27

Yeah, it’s interesting. I remember the very first time I wrote in college, I was with a group of friends that we were just in our dorm. And I was I started a business in high school at Cal Newport and I started a business together. It changed my life in so many different ways. I was at that time, I was just an evangelist. I just like, everyone’s got to start a business Trust me. And I was frustrated because I couldn’t get it across the people. So at the after the night everyone got home literally is 1am. I wrote an email to everyone. Here are the seven reasons you need to start a business. And then I actually got really good feedback from them. One of them even started a business. And so I published that an entrepreneur calm. But it’s kind of similar. Just there was a conversation that was triggered from a conversation where I was like, I couldn’t get it across the network hated me what I was feeling. And I just want to solve that puzzle by getting down the words is that feels similar to what you’re talking about.

Jack Butcher 40:20

Yeah, I think that’s it spot on. It’s like you’re trying to externalize these things that you believe to be true. And it’s like you just like searching for people who also believe that as like, that’s the process of like, producing content and putting those things out there. It’s like this network building device. It’s like, here’s how I see the world. Do you agree? Or like, is there merit in this that maybe, you know, we could come to some common understanding of or is it totally nonsense? Like, you feel free to debunk it as well? So? Yes, like, it’s an itch that you feel like you have to scratch your eyes, like, this thing is, like frustrating me that I haven’t put it out into the world, and especially when you’re doing something that people are asking you questions about, like, how do you think about like, in your case, how do you think about starting a business? Why would you do that? Why aren’t you, you know, applying for job X, Y, and Z? Like I could have this conversation 100 times or I could just write something and say, read this

Michael Simmons 41:24

could be a question or dilemma. Yeah, really interesting. The way it’s like a FAQ frequently asked question a person?

Jack Butcher 41:31

Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s a great way to think about it. Like, in the same way you would automate processes within your business. It’s like, you try and use content to just like, answer questions that people keep asking you like, in some of our community discussions and Visualize Value, we’ll get, like, we get a question asked three times, it’s like, Okay, it’s time to write an article or make a video or do something that we could just send people to? And that’s not to say that the question has been completely fully answered, but then the questions we’re going to get off the back of that video are going to be even more pointed, which is going to give us way more direction to, like, refine it even more. So. Yeah, it’s like trying to this like internal and external feedback loop that you’re requesting people’s input to just further tweak the answer.

Michael Simmons 42:24

Really interesting. Well, I’m so fascinated by the world of thought, you know, one way I think about it is, you know, one of the big things in the last 10 years has been the sharing economy. So Uber or Airbnb, are based on these ideas that you have this asset that’s expensive to buy, but doesn’t cost much to own and you’re barely using it, though. You know, you can have somebody else use it, at least in the case of car, for example, or Yeah. So, you know, I think I always think that we spend our whole life building up all these ideas, and then they’re just sitting there in our head. And everyone has ideas that could be helpful to someone else. And then when I hear you saying, the other side of that, that’s kind of just sitting in your head. But the other one is, there’s some ideas that you’re you have for whatever reason, you’re explaining the same idea over and over. So why not spend extra time explaining it once really, really well? And then have that as your answer?

Michael Simmons 43:20

Absolutely. Three acts rule of I don’t know, there’s some naming opportunity.

Jack Butcher 43:26

Yeah. Agreed. Agreed, like, yeah, the FAQ is a good. Like, instead of a product FAQ is like a personal FAQ, maybe that’s the way to think about it.

Michael Simmons 43:37

Yeah, I like that. You’re one thing I obviously you’re well known for first, you have the Visualize Value course, teaching people about how to use design visuals, which is awesome. I’m a student and and then your second, your other course, is more about these ways of thinking and the mindset to produce and be successful online, let’s say, I think the thing that you’re most underestimated for, although now you’re really well known by millions of people, is quotes, or at least I’ve haven’t, I think you’re a genius at creating quotes. I personally really value the craft of how do you create a sentence that’s that so valuable to people that they remember it? They share it with friends, it stands the test of time, and I think it’s one of the highest value things one could do with their thoughts because most sentences are just forgotten. You say it once and you never hear it again. And I was just curious, how did you get good at quotes within all this equation? So

Jack Butcher 44:42

good question. I don’t think like you know, I have no formal training as a writer or like even grammar is not my strong point. Like my wife is way more qualified to like, you know, police the the structure of a sentence or like, did I say this right is the apostrophe in the right place? But I think the I think the craft is like there is this self reinforcing feedback loop to that use that concept. Again, that design is a powerful teacher of. So design, I think teaches you the, the skill of removing what’s not necessary, right. So just

Jack Butcher 45:33

Just say, say what you need to say in as few words as you can, or like, make something happen with the fewest with the fewest elements that you can like everything that everything that doesn’t contribute to the end goal is superfluous in design. And the same is true, I think, in copy. And it’s a really difficult thing to master on both sides. But I think, for me personally having the, like, having the ability to filter by would I be able to visualize this idea? Or does this have the same qualities of these, these quotes and these, these concepts that I would pick out to visualize? Is there like the, you know, the semantic structure or the the hierarchy of information in there that really lends itself to this, like visual context? And, you know, there’s no very formal process for that. But I think, you know, you almost developing a bit of an instinct by going through that process hundreds 1000s of times at this point where it’s like, okay, the original, the original, I think, impetus for me getting better at writing was, I don’t want to, I don’t want this page to be purely everybody else’s IP, right. Like, I want to know, to all of the great thinkers and writers that helped me I want to like, give back and amplify those ideas. I think they’re incredibly powerful. But yeah, I want this thing to also be a vehicle for me to express the things that I find valuable and the things that the ideas I’ve developed over the last few years and that feedback loop between my like personal Twitter account and Visualize Value as where that like where that refinement came in, like, right, yeah, amplify on Visualize Value, then maybe translate it to a visual, though. Yeah, that’s one of the big parts of I think,

Michael Simmons 47:32

a few questions for you. Well, one, just an observation, I for a while I went deep into linguistics, studying linguistics, just that I love research. That’s my thing. And just the patterns of it is that we use, you can think about it in the from the mental model of the law of thermodynamics, and you’re just trying to be as efficient as energy as possible. The overtime language often involves the use fewer and fewer words to describe something. And then you like that is because basically, when people are saying if it works hard to stay, then they’ll abbreviate it. And a funny example is in high school, you know, kids being kids, there was one teacher that was just just a little older, she had trouble moving her neck to the side. So she had to burn her whole body to the side. And we’ve all had this situation where we pull our neck or something. And then for the day, it’s hard to turn so her last name was Miscrufal. So people just call it the if you have that, rather than saying, Oh, my next door. You just said I have a shortcut roughneck basically.

Michael Simmons 48:40

So now, I’m not this is just the high school version, it actually stuck for, you know, the people in that group still actually use that to describe that. And so I wonder if we could try something real time where? Okay, so we talked about this idea of the personal FAQ, or you saying something? If you get asked the question 3x times, then that’s a good time to create an answer. How I know it’s instinctual and often happens for you now to unconscious level. But are there certain a ways of passive thinking you would you would use to try to break that down into a sentence that you could share? Oh, this

Jack Butcher 49:17

this three

Michael Simmons 49:20

personal fashions? Yeah.

Jack Butcher 49:23

The way I would probably think about it, or the way I would write it up is would probably refer to like, a lot of the consistent ideas that I talked about. So this idea of like build once sell twice. Yeah, as the you know, the masthead of this product and this philosophy of use top use technology and media to divorce your inputs and outputs and scale your income. I think that same idea is like

would apply here where you’re essentially writing something once and like sending it out for consumption as many times as you, you know, as you get asked, so, um, the actual structure of it, I would, I’ll keep it cooking in the back of my head, but I think the this idea is maybe more like, like your answers become leverage, you know, like you’re, you’re able to turn the things that you get asked frequently into, like a different form of leverage. So one of the one of the questions we get all the time is how to build community. Yeah, like we always like, we have a reasonably successful community 1000 members, and it’s like, pretty vibrant as people like going back and forth all day long on all these different channels. And we get a ton of questions about, well, how do you build a community? And more often than not, it’s like, that’s the wrong question to ask, right? A community is a byproduct of something you did that a bunch of people appreciate that they want to, like, be near. So

Jack Butcher 51:22

I think that same, same idea applies to same idea applies to this concept that we’re discussing, which is like, if you have this like, common

Jack Butcher 51:40

this is the feedback we were talking about earlier. So you have this common validation that this is a concern for a ton of people. Hmm, yeah, thank you, you almost have is a is a way to think about is like answer market fit, right? So you have Oh, I identify Yeah, identify the loads of people want to know this about you. I think the personal FAQ is maybe a good little like branded way to think about it, but in the same way that like, people raise their hand. This is this is another like, another way to think about product development, right? where people are like, I’m going to make a product. And then I’m going to go out and ask people if they want it. If you get the same question three or four times people are telling you what they want, right? Whether that right hand turn product, like depending on the nature of the question, that might just be a video that might be you know, a piece of software, that might be something else, but I think, yeah,

Jack Butcher 52:43

I would, I would say like a lot of people probably already have insight, if they just answered the questions that a ton of people already asking them. So I would go down that route to try and distill that into.

Michael Simmons 52:56

So it’s almost like other people’s questions or your product are?

Jack Butcher 53:00

Yeah, that’s

Michael Simmons 53:00

your idea of leverage. Yeah, I

Jack Butcher 53:03

think that’s interesting, like baked in, you just haven’t, you just haven’t. You haven’t taken essentially the final step, right? You’ve already given the answer. You’ve already figured it out. I sort of like to go back to our earlier conversation, like, your thoughts are sitting there in your head, your answers to questions are sitting there in your head. But until you turn that into something that can answer the question without you, you don’t have any leverage.

Michael Simmons 53:30

Yeah, and what I had heard slightly, I’m reading between the lines of what you said is, number one, there’s different formats or ideas that you’ve used, that you could go back to like the build one sell twice. That could be a format, like, theoretically, you could run the equation of like, get out. Why is the answer once or something like that? So that’s exactly right.

Jack Butcher 53:49

Yeah. A good way to think about,

Michael Simmons 53:51

it made me think about there’s research from the 1980s. I don’t know I remember the date, but around the early 80s, where they studied how expert physics students, answer questions versus novices. So novices they go right to the first thing that like that immediate hack, where the the advanced expert, the experts, they have a pool of different physics principles. And they think, Okay, what principle would be relevant here? So it’s like you cycled through some of the ideas that you’ve worked with over time of like, the leverage as an idea or other things. Okay, how does this fit into those ideas? Those are that

Jack Butcher 54:30

Yeah, I think that’s like, that’s an interesting model, especially when you’re creating content or you’re building internet businesses like, what are people coming to me for specifically? And then how do I basically put any question I’m asked through that frame, like, you know, the content that I’ve put out over the last couple of years is almost exclusively focused on this idea of Content Marketing, education, training, like separating your time from your income. So pretty much any question that comes in, can go back out through that filter, and you like, make it your own in that way, you know, we’re all kind of asking the same questions of one another. And when you get back to like, the foundations, there’s really not that much that’s varying under the re re surface. It’s like all stylistic and like, the way you deliver it. I think this is another thing that struck me as interesting over the course of like, building an audience is like, people are really buying the way you say things and not necessarily buying the things you say, because that stuff’s out there, right? Like this. Look at the bookshelf behind you. There’s like 1000s and 1000s, of versions of these ideas that have been communicated in different ways. And like, one person’s story really helps somebody grasp a principle where it might not resonate whatsoever with the next person. So I think, you know, that’s another thing that is, I think, difficult for people to do in the beginning is like, really value their own perspective, to the point where they’re not emulating what they see, or, you know, you’re not, you’re not,

Jack Butcher 56:20

you’re not producing stuff, because you believe it to be true, necessarily just producing it, because you think it’s gonna create, you know, result x is going to happen. And this goes back to what we were talking about the very beginning, which is like, if this isn’t, if you’re essentially pretending to be something, you’re going to build a business that you hate running. That’s, I mean, I’ve proven that theory. True five or six times, like I see an economic need for this. I know people will pay for this, but I absolutely detest doing it. I know how to get people to click on it. But as soon as they pay me, I’m like, why did I say yes to this?

Michael Simmons 56:59

Yeah, I’ve been there too many times as well, previous businesses, I started giving myself permission to write about the things I was interested in four or five years ago, where it’s like, yeah, and then you realise, for me, that the whole goal paradigm for me, starts to become stale. To create these goals, and I can’t predict it, not only can I not predict what the future environments going to be like, because there’s gonna be all these feedback loops. But also, I can’t predict how I’m going to be that the goals I have now are different than even though I’ve gone through big changes, personally, right now doing just into meditation, and, you know, learning about self compassion, somatic experience, all these different areas, I can feel it changing me, I could not have predicted the beginning of January 2020, that I would even be interested in these things, or the person. And if I said on January 1 2020, okay, on December 1st, I’m going to write an article on XYZ, that’s just, I don’t want to burden my December 1st self with what I wanted in the past. So

Jack Butcher 58:05

yeah, that’s a great, that’s a great way to think about I’ve been thinking about the like, the personal shift, too. It’s like, you plan five years ahead, like you have no clue what you’re gonna value in five years like that, I think I might have read that. In something you posted. It’s like we just drastically underestimate how much we change and how much our preferences change. And

Michael Simmons 58:27

exactly, we think we kind of once we’re an adult, we stay the same or no, like, there’s actually we go through huge changes.

Jack Butcher 58:35

Yeah, I think there’s like, there’s more flexibility in, in

Jack Butcher 58:43

the options that exist by like building a business now than there ever has been right. And that continues to, that continues to be more and more true, you can essentially build a business around like, if you like playing video games, you can build a business around teaching people how to play video games, or having people watch you play video games, or whatever else. And the interesting thing is, that goal doesn’t have to be 10 years out from what you’re doing today for it to be like, you know, a worthwhile venture. If anything, like the closer you can align, and the more nimble you are with your ability to pivot the direction of the business, the more peace of mind you have with a friend of mine, we used to have this concept we called MRR, which was monthly recurring responsibility, exactly what you just mentioned, it’s like if I’m going to agree to this thing, let’s let’s just say timeline ahead of it. Like it’s not just the money that I’m getting. I’m like signing up for this incredible amount of responsibility in the future. That, you know, once you know, x unpredictable event happens, I don’t know how I’m gonna feel about that or like if my relationship with this person goes in a different direction. So you’re trying to optimize for I’m not to say don’t take responsibility for what you’re going to do. But in scenarios where you really have no idea what that’s going to morph into. Reducing that, like, burden of like getting in a situation where you have no way to adjust or control those levers is, is a hard lesson to learn. But once you learn it, it’s like, you know, no becomes the best, like, the most powerful word in your vocabulary at that point.

Michael Simmons 1:00:28

Yeah, it’s interesting that there’s been this playbook that’s been created in the technology space, where you raise a lot of money. And a lot of it’s based on that, and a lot of it works for that industry. But I think it’s so much different for in this world of thought leadership, people who want to express themselves do podcast videos, writing, that the personal element is so much more important, because you’re not just coming, having a company to sell it in five years, you’re building a lifestyle, you’re, you’re building a point of view, instead of Yeah, I almost have to do the opposite of some of the things that you’re supposed to do. And that other playbook.

Jack Butcher 1:01:02

Yeah, I like good friends that are, you know, in astronomically different financial circumstances as a result of like, building companies selling companies raising money, but we have conversations that are like, yeah, it’s cool, for some reasons, but like, the grass is always greener. You know, like, I wish I had owned 100% of this thing. And it was, you know, it could be 10 times less valuable. But if you own all of it, and you know, you’re optimizing for how you want to live versus like, what your investors want you to return, then it’s just a different game. And some people, you know, depends on the game you’d like playing?

Michael Simmons 1:01:43

Yeah, exactly. So I think that I think about the thought leadership field, as almost similar to the field of software, in that, you know, that let’s say this field of software really started in the early 80s, there wasn’t, you know, huge funding, how to do it, there wasn’t tons of courses that you can take in college, how to do it, there wasn’t much specialisation. And it just became the, there’s just a new industry. But the thing that was powerful about it is, you could take something from in your head, create a program, and then run the program anywhere at scale. And I think thoughts in terms of thought leadership and putting into images, videos, words, are very similar in terms of scale. But the industry didn’t have a way to monetize. For decades, there hasn’t really grown that much. In many ways. There’s not a place you can go to really get a, you know, a four year degree in thought leadership, yes to journalism, but not really to what we’re talking about. And there’s not much of a there’s just the beginnings of a funding ecosystem, just in the past few years, with substack, and things like that people are buying courses, subscriptions. So I personally feel like we’re an inning one, what it means to be able to develop thoughts in our head and then beam them out into the world to millions or you know, the YouTube videos. And that’s billions of people. Yeah, my question for you is, how do you think about in contextualize? Where this field is right now? And where it’s going?

Jack Butcher 1:03:06

Yeah. So when I got when I got into it, I was like, wow, this is like, you know, as a supersaturated thing, right? There’s, when you’re like, when you’re really close to it, it’s like the elephant thing, right? It’s like, everybody’s, like, building courses. And, you know, there’s like this online education space is so saturated, how am I going to stand out what makes me different. But the more I’ve stayed in it over the last couple of years, I realised like, this is not that big at all, you know, like this, there’s really like, a few dozen people in the world that are, you know, really the go to go to characters in this space. And like the speed at which I think I’ve even been able to, like, have conversations with some of these people. It’s like, wow, the barriers to entry for this thing are not significant. You know, like, if I if you wanted to pick up, I don’t know, some entrenched industry that you wanted to become like a reasonable size player, and it’s just like, you can’t get it, right. It’s like, you don’t know this person or you didn’t go to the school. So you can’t do this sorry, like, go through the traditional path of like, meeting on gatekeeper at a time. I think, like, this thing is inherently like anti gatekeeper, right, it’s like, especially when it’s like personality driven. And like, there’s like this skin in the game component to like your reputation, your product scales with your reputation. So the incentives are very interesting in this space, and I think, create, like very long term thinkers and like very product and customer centric companies, because you really have no other choice. You know, it’s like, if you don’t Do the right thing, then you’re gonna be in business for very long. So yeah, I think there’s gonna be a ton more of like, I do agree with you your hypothesis that it’s in its infancy, I also think the, like the set of skills needed to do it on your own is prohibitive for a lot of people to like to run a run a,

Jack Butcher 1:05:27

like a full on, if we call it thought leadership business with like Product Marketing, like marketing automation, like curriculum development, all of that stuff, like the number of people that can do all of that, by themselves is very few. So I think we’ll see platforms, we’ll see. We’ll see people that are trying to facilitate that at scale a lot in the next few years, I think.

Michael Simmons 1:05:55

What do you do I agree that there’s a lot of skills that are involved in people are just starting to get those differentiated. What do you think, causes people not to be successful? What’s missing? Is that Is it just nurture versus nature? Like, there’s only so many people? Or do you feel like we’re just, we don’t have the infrastructure yet, like there is for software?

Jack Butcher 1:06:17

I think I think there’s, there’s that that plays a part, I think one of the things that is fascinating to me is like marketing is such a massive lever and this thing, like there’s so many intelligent people in the world, I am not like, by any means, like, exceptionally intelligent in any area. But I’ve had so much exposure to marketing that any like, I think the small amount of success that I’ve experienced in the last year or so, is largely attributed to my ability to like the press, I’ve got amazing feedback on the product is a great product. But if I didn’t have the ability to market it the way I did, based on my experience in agencies and with the network I have, and all of the like iterations I went through on the marketing side, there’s no way it would have would have sustained itself as long as it has. And just knowing how much it really takes how often you have to go out there and be like, buy my stuff, buy my stuff, buy my stuff. Most people are, I’ve never been an environment where, you know, you say that twice, and nobody buys your stuff, you think I’m done. Most people give up. Because it’s just been like, you’ve never been in an environment where it’s, you know, this is what it takes. And even if you’re a billion dollar company, you’re spending hundreds of millions of dollars a month, putting yourself in front of people every day, buy this buy this buy, like, I think there’s this really huge misconception of, hey, if my product is good, then it’s just going to take off and I’m going to be fine. It’s just not true. In any sense of the word. Like you have to learn to promote yourself, they’re really difficult thing for a lot of people I think is you know, if you do it yourself, and you have to, like take the licks of getting it wrong and upsetting people and you know, all of those things that come with, yeah, yourself on the internet, you get, you get a little bit of that. And like you have to build a thick skin to get through that component, especially early on when you have no like body of proof or like evidence for this thing. Working when you get that then. And there are ways of like, there are ways to get around that right. You can give people your stuff and get great feedback and to convince yourself that it works to the degree you need to, in order to go out and promote it. That’s really I think, where a lot of people kind of skip that step of like, Hey, you can give your product away to 100 people get great feedback, and then you’re gonna feel great about promoting it, because you know, it works. And you know, people had a great time using it. But if you skip that step, it’s really hard to build that confidence. And the other thing I was gonna say is like, there are maybe a few exceptions to this. But if you hire people to market your stuff, you never build that skill yourself. So you really, again, you just don’t feel like you have you don’t feel like you have control, I think like agencies or, you know, marketers that again, don’t translate. Don’t do. And this is not true of everyone. But typically, you know, it’s a we’re going to deploy this tactic that we know is going to get someone to buy something, not necessarily we’re going to have this like holistic product content marketing strategy that makes people buy into Michael Simmons as a person over the long term. So I think they’re like the full stack set of skills you need to be you know, one of the best examples of this in the world is David Perell. You know, who David Perell is

MIchael Simmons 1:09:51

well. Yeah, yep.

Jack Butcher 1:09:53

Like, right. I think he’s, I think he’s got one employee for like running like the logistics of the course. But the entire David Perell ecosystem functions off the back of his business being completely aligned with what he loves doing and what he’s great at. And that happens to be stuff that you can produce on the front end that people love to consume. And it’s just this natural, flowing ecos ecosystem that that happens as a result of that. And I think you’d have to go back, there’s millions of people with incredible knowledge and amazing things to teach. But preparing that for the market and getting people to buy into that at scale. That’s the last thing where the real language comes.

Michael Simmons 1:10:38

Really, really interesting. And from a marketing part, what do you feel? If you were to just do a course on that? and break it down to the 80 20s?

Michael Simmons 1:10:51

What’s the actually don’t answer that yet. Sorry. Want to go back to more your, your story, and use that as a case study? So first 12 months, you don’t make any offers, you’re just pumping out things,

Jack Butcher 1:11:06

and your product, selling prints for a couple of months. So it’s just like, hey, if you like this by the canvas of it, but that was that was all there was pretty much for the first

Michael Simmons 1:11:17

like, physical things people could print out or you ship it through them.

Jack Butcher 1:11:22

It was dropped shipped by a vendor. Yeah, you just walk into Shopify, and they’ll deliver it, I probably sold 2000 3000 of them in three months.

Michael Simmons 1:11:32

36. And so how much are you selling them for?

Jack Butcher 1:11:37

There are different sizes, I think the most expensive one was 150 bucks or 200 bucks, some of the margins were pretty brutal on themselves making now $25 a print or less on the smaller one. So it was you know, a little bit of beer money, but nothing significant at all.

Michael Simmons 1:11:56

And when did you start making your first offer to do that within the

Jack Butcher 1:12:01

When did we start selling the prints?

Michael Simmons 1:12:03

Yeah. So you started January 2019? Just

Jack Butcher 1:12:05

I would say probably? probably at least five, six months into the Okay, into the Twitter feed. Yeah.

Michael Simmons 1:12:12

And so basically, it wasn’t a success for you. What, what made you keep going and Well, I think

Jack Butcher 1:12:21

I saw like, I just saw the appetite for the content itself. It’s just like, if people like this thing, I’ll eventually figure out a way to, you know, align it to something that I am producing, like, this is not the iteration of it. That makes sense, I think. Now, it’s obvious in hindsight, it’s like, why would I buy a print of this thing when you’re posting one of them every day? You know, right, right. There’s still a market for it, but it’s just not one, it’s like, it just doesn’t really excite me. I’m not really that interested in it. And too, it’s like, yeah, there’s like, it’s kind of the, the, the speed at which people consume information, the amount of stuff people want, like getting somebody to commit to one print is just kind of a sad thing to do. I think, and this doesn’t really align with the content strategy on the front end. So yeah, we just there’s like, ask cool experiment, but no, I’m gonna do it.

Michael Simmons 1:13:19

And then what’s your next plan? Was your next offer planner? Was that about six months later?

Jack Butcher 1:13:25

Yeah. Yeah, I think maybe two or three months later, yeah. So towards the end of 2019, I think.

Michael Simmons 1:13:32

Okay. And how did that go?

Jack Butcher 1:13:35

That went pretty well, I’m trying to like, think of all the milestones, I think we launched it for like nine bucks or something. And, you know, that was significantly better than the prints one, because you had, you know, it was just delivered digitally. And like, the margins were great. So I think we probably sold 100 or so in 2019, maybe a little more.

Michael Simmons 1:14:00

About $900.

Jack Butcher 1:14:02

Yeah, something like that. I think we put up to 90 bucks at one point. And then we started messing around with communities on the back end of it. So everybody that got the manifest, join this thing, join this telegram group join this whatsapp group, we eventually settled on slack. And then that is really where the, this is one of the like, insights, I think that group with that product is like, okay, the reason the community works, because everybody was using this tool. You’re not just trying to build a community for community sake. Everybody’s like waking up and doing the same activity. So they’ve got value to exchange between one another because hey, how do you use it at night? What do you put in this box? Like what When have you found the most effective time to do X? So that’s where that community component scaled off the back of that

Michael Simmons 1:14:49

interesting at all. Now, I know you’ve since gone to, you know, have product launches where hundreds of $1,000 and your business is on track to do over a million dollars. But I feel like that when you’re saying, okay, I’ve done all these visuals, and then I’m going to create a productivity tool, the great productivity tool, but it feels like the alignment, isn’t there as much as for your other things where you’re telling people, I’m going to show you how to do what I did, you know, that feels like, how, what did you learn from that experience? And subsequently about how to align, create a product? If you have interest? How do you create a product that sells itself from the content?

Jack Butcher 1:15:28

Yeah, so there is a piece of the story that I think informed the development of the daily manifest that we didn’t talk about, but we didn’t talk about directly, but we did sort of refer to so the I was, I was doing this on Twitter and Instagram, but by, you know, a few months into 2019. And the one thing I would do on Instagram, like almost maybe every week, maybe a little bit more frequently than that, at the start, I would just post these questions, what do you need help with on my Instagram story?

Michael Simmons 1:16:01

Jack Butcher 1:16:02

I’ll get like 100 replies really can’t like I’m procrastinating or I struggle with time management, or I can’t, can’t seem to get anything finished. Or, you know, I can’t set goals or like, there was just this really interesting like the Matic responses again, you just keep getting the same questions over and over again, it’s like, well, you know, what, what do I have? or What have I done that has helped me, like, get on this schedule of producing stuff every day. And when I was in that early stage of the business, when I was running the agency, I had my days, like, this hour, I’ll be doing that this hour, I’ll be doing that. When I’m finished with that. I’m going to do a Visualize Value, like,

Michael Simmons 1:16:45

Sprint, okay. Okay.

Jack Butcher 1:16:47

So I had this tool, and I’d use like a combination of different, like, habit trackers and stuff in the past. And I just distilled it down to this one page that worked for me. I was like, Hey, this is what I use, if you’re interested, like, you can download it. And that was again, like, answer market fit or like, question market fit, like, everybody’s struggling with this. And the way in which the content is presented as kind of align them with the way I think and the stuff I’m talking about. So then you get an opportunity to create a product.

Michael Simmons 1:17:24

Yeah, it’s interesting. So you’re, you’re basically going off of the questions or challenges your community has, that could be helped that you could solve that you have an answer for. Exactly, yeah. But at the same time, relative to other products, it doesn’t seem like it did nearly as well, by an order of magnitude or so. Oh,

Jack Butcher 1:17:45

yeah. Just in terms of volume? Yeah, I think we haven’t really promoted it that significantly, either. And it’s now a, it comes with the membership. So it’s kind of exists with this product. And you can buy it separately, but I think this year, it did it did reasonably well. I don’t know the exact numbers, but you know, as a as a portion of a product revenue is probably 5 10 percent, I would think.

Michael Simmons 1:18:15

Yep. Yep. Yeah, that really adds up over time. Yeah, yeah. It’s interesting. I’m partially what I’m getting in thinking about is the alignments between things. And I think you talked about this on one of your interviews as well, that it’s, you know, you have free content, and then you have what people pay for. And it’s really valuable when just by virtue of posting your free content that’s valuable, that there’s people want there’s a product that could be really into alignment with that. How, how do you think about that now that if you were advising an entrepreneur, who has a following to create a product?

Jack Butcher 1:18:56

Yeah, I like it inflammation specifically, like if you’re building a inflammation, inflammation or transformational product, so I’m going to go from knowing nothing about x to knowing enough about x to do y, or, you know, whatever that transition is. So in the case of how to Visualize Value, I know nothing about design. And then on the other end of this course, I’m going to be you know, equipped to visualize ideas and start to refine my design chops, right? That’s the transition we want you to make. So in the case of that product, again, that was like a reverse engineered from this thing that people were excited about on the front end. So are these these, like these really helped me get my head around this idea or this really helped me? This really helped me understand this thing. I would love to be able to, like communicate my ideas or you know, speak to my boss in a way that really like present ideas to my team. With the same efficacy as this, so there’s a couple of ways I think about it. And like on the disk, like the design example is so specific that maybe it doesn’t serve, it doesn’t answer it as comprehensively. But that is like, you know, you just keep producing images on the front end. And the marks like, well, How’d you do that? Like, he go, you go, you go. So this is like, so if I was to reverse engineer that for someone like you, that’s like, I wrote this amazing blockbuster article, and I think you already do this. It’s like, I’m gonna teach you how to like, write an amazing article over the course of three months, that’s an obvious, you know, an obvious way to do that. The second part of the answer, I think, is like, when you think about something as a curriculum, or you can like, you know, build one sell twice as this curriculum or this philosophy or this organizing principle. There’s so many things that sit underneath that, that the paid product is almost the it’s like the Encyclopaedia of that concept, right. And then your content on the front end is just you referencing an article or pulling out an image from the encyclopaedia tearing out a page and showing it to someone. So like the product and the marketing, again, most people think of those as like separate disciplines, but really like, the closer you can get your content in your product to your marketing, the better off you’re going to be. Right. It’s like, this is literally a lesson from insight, like some of the most effective assets for selling build on sell twice have been read on Twitter that are verbatim pulled from the course. This is a lesson from the course. Here are the six concepts. If you want the rest of the course, here it is, like it’s the ability to like, think it’s where meat settee says move the free line, have you?

Michael Simmons 1:21:57

Yeah, I do. That was Eben, originally, Eben Pagan?

Jack Butcher 1:21:59

Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah, the free line, amazing concept where it’s like, I think I’ve been in this position like a few years ago, where it’s like you, you, for some reason, extrapolate marketing into this exercise that is like, different from the thing you’re selling. So I have to, you know, there’s some truth to that, right, you have to position it in a way that is like explaining the transformation. And there is this layer that sits on top, but the most compelling thing you can do to marketing product, if it’s information is show people what the information is, right, the quality of the writing, the the way in which the chapters the structure, the way the lessons fit together, there’s like, you have all this marketing material as a product of just building the curriculum itself. So that would be like some of the like, most boilerplate advice is like, Hey, your curriculum could be out there on the internet and all these different pieces, people are going to pay you just to have access to it in order.

Michael Simmons 1:23:06

Right, those these you’re sequencing it? You’re Yeah. Cyclopedia. So it’s all in one place. Those questions? Yeah,

Jack Butcher 1:23:15

yeah, like that, that’s hosted on a platform where they have access to you like, that’s another piece of, you know, the value proposition that exists outside of just consuming content on YouTube or wherever. And the other thing is, I think we get really, in our heads about oh, my God, this is, you know, I can’t show this because other people are paid for this, or, you know, this is this exists behind a paywall, so I have to just allude to what it is, as opposed to what it is. Yeah. Which is, I think, like, you know, it’s a mistake, honestly, because you are, you are way more sensitive to like the entirety of your story being out there than anyone else, right. It’s like you evaluate other people’s experience of your content through your experience of it. And to be honest, it’s barely ever true, right? When I get on to conversations with people that have even consumed everything I’ve put out, there are still things that they’re like, Oh, I didn’t know that. I haven’t seen this. I didn’t know that, like,

Michael Simmons 1:24:16

you have photographic memory of right. Oh, posts you did.

Jack Butcher 1:24:20

Yeah, they haven’t experienced it in the same way you have. But we like extrapolate that it’s very difficult to like, I don’t know, again, I’m terrible at like, the attributions of these quotes, but like this linear experience we have in an exponential world, right? We’re linear creatures. And we live in this like crazy internet environment where we’re just saying, like, I everybody else must be experiencing the world the way I am. And it’s just like, not even remotely close to true. So yeah, you can say something 10 times and most of the people that like are intentionally trying to consume all of your stuff once it.

Michael Simmons 1:25:01

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I feel like there’s two lessons there. And we can end here. Number one is just you can move the free line much further than you think that it’s not going to cannibalise your course. And one of the reasons is that it’s not like people are taking all your free stuff, and like putting them into a file and organizing it. Yeah, they might come across it and they might even like it and then even forget you wrote it in a year. They’re just having all in one place. is just works really well. Something can package.

Jack Butcher 1:25:33

Yeah, yeah, just like under arrest or overestimating the, like, mental bandwidth of your average internet citizen is, I think, where people get hung up on promoting themselves, and like, overthinking the marketing, exercise, and all of those things that are just like stumbling blocks that don’t need to be in place like the product. If you have if you have like,

Jack Butcher 1:26:00

great knowledge to share, turn it into a compelling product and just show people the product. That’s your marketing exercise.

Michael Simmons 1:26:07

Yeah, yeah. Well, Jack, this was awesome. We covered we covered a lot of really, really good stuff today. So people can learn about you at Twitter at jackbutcher.com or at Twitter at Visualize Value. And you have your courses as well. He shared more about where people can follow you sign up for your courses, which I recommend everyone listening do.

Jack Butcher 1:26:30

Awesome. Yeah. So you can go to visualizevalue.com, and I’ll give you a short description of the products you can shoot after all different product pages from there. One is a one’s how to how to Visualize Value. So explains the process and the thinking behind how to turn an idea that isn’t visual into a visual representation. Build on sell twice is more focused on this journey of productizing your specific skill set into something that works without you. So a lot of what we just talked about in the last 10 minutes or so this conversation. And then we have a community where we bring people on on a weekly basis that is doing all sorts of interesting stuff on the internet. And the daily manifest is a one page PDF helps you get control your time. So go find all of it, visualizevalue.com and get at me on twitter @JackButcher.

Michael Simmons 1:27:27

All right, wonderful. Thank you very much, Jack.

Jack Butcher 1:27:29

Thank you. This was fun.

Outro 1:27:32

Optimizing Your Marketing Strategy to Create Happy Customers with Andre Chaperon and Shawn Twing

May 5, 2021 // by michaeld // Podcast // No Comments

André Chaperon is an entrepreneur, marketer, writer, and Co-Founder of Tiny Little Businesses, a company that helps people create small—but important—businesses. André left his job in the corporate world at the age of 30 to start Tiny Little Businesses, and he has helped many fellow entrepreneurs develop long-term relationships with their patrons.

Shawn Twing is a 20-year veteran of digital marketing and President of Barn Door Media. He helps clients identify business models, implement marketing strategies, and bring their business to its full potential. Shawn has been named one of the top experts in the world on paid traffic.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

André Chaperon discusses his journey in thought leadership.
Shawn Twing shares his marketing experience and how he started a partnership with André.
How do you create a system and optimize your business to create a happy customer?
Facilitating long-term connections with customers.
André and Shawn’s careers as both teachers and learners.
Co-authorship and the future of writing.
What is the hardest part of collaboration?
Strategies for building the right feedback loop.
The importance of finding your dominant skill—and learning to excel at it.
The “TOL” approach: Thinking Out Loud
André and Shawn’s methods for mind mapping and forming ideas.

In this episode…

Customer connections are vital to the success of a business, but your marketing approach might be driving them away. So how do you secure positive interactions with customers, and what are the best strategies for optimizing your business?

André Chaperon and Shawn Twing are writers and thought leaders that have two decades worth of marketing knowledge. With experience in scaling their own business, André and Shawn can help anyone find the most successful system for building their business—and have created courses to help creators like you do just that.

In this episode of The Michael Simmons Show, host Michael Simmons is joined by André Chaperon, Co-Founder of Tiny Little Businesses, and Shawn Twing, President of Barn Door Media. They discuss the best marketing models, the benefits of setting aside time for learning, and how to create long-lasting relationships with happy customers. Stay tuned.

Resources Mentioned in this episode

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by my company, Seminal.

We help you create blockbuster content that rises above the noise, changes the world, and builds your business.

To learn about creating blockbuster content, read my article: Blockbuster: The #1 Mental Model For Writers Who Want To Create High-Quality, Viral Content

Episode Transcript

Intro 0:02

Michael Simmons 0:14

Today is a special episode, we have two amazing guests who are business partners, André Chaperon, and Shawn Twing. So, André, I first heard about the reputation before I actually met him. So he started as a thought leader, that’s actually more as an affiliate, though, promoting other people’s products, and using his marketing knowledge. And over time after building up a base of people who really trusted his voice, and becoming actually pretty famous in that world, because he had very small list compared to other people. But he was often the top affiliate for others. In other words, he had a really, he was able to cultivate deep authentic relationships, where people trust him. And actually several people that have been in our programmes, swear by André, and I’ve talked about how much they just want to emulate his authenticity with marketing. But he then went into courses, and his courses on digital marketing, online marketing, and how to build relationships through email, have sold 10s of 1000s of courses, though, he’s been very successful. And also another interesting thing is that he lives in Gibraltar. And he really just loves writing, though he doesn’t do any video at all. And it’s all writing. So we talked about that. And more recently, André partnered with Shawn Twing, and Shawn has spent two decades in the world of online advertising. And he’s managed over 100 and million dollars in AD budget, and work with nearly 200 clients on over 650 projects. He also is a great learner, and thinker and writer. And in this episode is actually really cool to hear about how André and Shawn met, and how they really collaborate at a deep level to and really thoughtful level to create amazing ideas, and build relationships and build a successful business. So without further ado, I give you Shawn and André. All right,

Michael Simmons 2:27

Shawn, and André, welcome to the podcast.

André Chaperon 2:28

Thanks for having us.

Michael Simmons 2:33

really, really excited to dive in here got a lot of questions for you both. And you guys have built a very successful thought leadership business, there’s 10s of 1000s of enrollments that you’ve had over the years, which is just crazy to think about that.

Michael Simmons 2:53

And the world of thought leadership has really changed both of you have been in the space for a long time, it kind of started off more or less at info marketing online. And we’re just at the point where, you know, people are at a large level are buying online courses, people are getting used to paying for content. And so I guess my first question is, how would you think about the context historically, in the past and the future, for this moment, and where the thought leadership business is, and what it is, and I think,

André Chaperon 3:23

for me, it’s been very organic. It’s so my journey from when I started doing this till, till now, it’s just been, it’s just been a journey that I’ve embraced, being on the journey, you know, I’ve been trying to race to a certain endpoint or goal or something like that, that’s, that’s pulling me forward to try and get this plus as possible. So I learned early on that, for me, it was about the journey. And so I’ve just, I’ve just allowed it to unravel as it’s happened. And along the way, I’m learning I’m making, you know, as you do loads of mistakes, and I have certain values that I use as a as a guiding star. But what happens after that is I don’t have an answer, other than just enjoying the work that I do. So it’s maybe not answering your question, because I don’t necessarily look too far ahead. I never plan one year, you know, in the future. So for me, it’s about, I mean, now, short, both both work in the business, and we have some ideas of what we want 2021 to look like. But, you know, I don’t know what’s going to happen in five years time. So I don’t think about it.

Michael Simmons 4:44

And you’re you’ve been in the industry for 17 years now. And it’s really evolved a lot of different ways. So for my understanding, you started off more on an affiliate side of things purely on email. And now it’s really evolved into something else can you talk more about the transitions that the major transitions you’ve made and why you’ve made them and even are you making any big changes this year when you’re thinking about the next year

André Chaperon 5:13

Yeah I think for me when I started in 2003 Iknew nothing zero you know I lost my job so and Imade a decision at that point that I was never going to go back so I had burned that bridge you know in my head that I’m going to make this online thing work but I didn’t know anything and you know back in 2003 they weren’t it was very different to to what it looks like now so you kind of have to figure stuff out yourselves yourself so I spent the first five years as an affiliate marketer because that was I didn’t have to have anything of my own I didn’t have any expertise because I didn’t know anything that I put that I could bring to bear so for me it was about learning and the best way to learn at the time for me anyway was through affiliate marketing because then I could promote other people’s products to me it taught me how to listen to people to the market to the pains of the market and trying to figure stuff out and then you know try and add value in some way you know insert myself as an affiliate marketer and let’s still be somebody that can add value I think there was that pulled me along

Michael Simmons 6:32

right so the first five years your affiliate marketers and then in around 2008 I guess if I can not do the math correctly you got more into the the course business and sell your first course Autoresponder

André Chaperon 6:45

yeah there was a transition so in 2009 was was when I first sold my first marketing product so and that’s when I essentially started to you know started to sell information that I had created it was a I reached a level of expertise that I felt comfortable with codifying and putting it into a product and selling that to an audience that I had curated for the last few years just sharing openly about the stuff that I was doing so that sharing piece and the affiliate marketing piece became that bridge to when I finally became a somebody that was selling their own stuff so that was my transition you know Shawn’s had have had a very different journey tonight so

Michael Simmons 7:33

yeah can you talk more about your journey Shawn?

Shawn Twing 7:36

so yeah and I’ll see if I can hit the question you asked to just from my perspective so I ran an agency for 21 years digital agency digital only agency André and I had met and just very very similar values so the partnership actually started earlier this year we did it decided to do a course that we talked about for a couple of years that and then following that realize that what we really enjoy is just writing together so and thinking together now so that partnership started end of April early May what I’ve seen over the years and has worked with you know somewhere north of 200 clients 650 projects what I what I’ve seen my perspective is that when we first started I started working online in 1996 I started my agency in 1998 when we first started knowing that no one really knew anything we didn’t know what was going to work I mean I remember conversations when people would say you know I’m not sure about this because I’m not really sure this internet’s gonna be a thing like really legitimately said that we didn’t know but at some point there was this shift to direct response marketing is almost like the entire industry said well there is this model out there you know brand doesn’t seem to me if you want to make money online you know the brand marketing doesn’t seem to be the way to do it the way that seems to match up with you know that when adwords first came out and we first started to be able to do affect traffic the direct response model just kind of naturally worked we had decimal place accurate accuracy reporting we could buy large volumes of traffic we could very easily make money and then that model has stuck around but what I think the shift that we’ve seen it’s happening faster now because the rate of change in tech is so much faster now is the direct response model in its purest form isn’t actually the best model for modern internet it just doesn’t it doesn’t work nearly as well as it used to doesn’t mean it doesn’t still work of course it still works but now we’re starting to see a lot more of a much more sophisticated approach instead of just being either you do brand marketing which you know the joke you know the inside joke about brand marketing as a brand effective the two most expensive words in the english language alright so either you go down this road where you don’t really know what’s happening you’re spending a bunch of money and you hope that you’re getting some positive effect or You go to the second decimal place, accuracy, direct response, everything is about an offer and monetizing attention. And what we’re learning is that there is an enormous world in between those two options where, yes, if you’re paying for attention, then you want to monetize that attention. But you don’t need to do it, necessarily with a front end, low cost offer and a bump offer an upsell one and upsell to and then a core offer. And you don’t have to do it that way. But now we’re in this this world, it’s very rich. I’m a lifelong martial artist. And one of the things in the martial arts is there are many paths up the mountain. And I finally reached the phase in marketing, where we can all collectively sit back and say, You know what, there are lots of paths up this mark up this mountain, we have the tools to do it our own way. We can let personalities come through. And in embracing, embracing how you want to show up in the world, like André and I are creators, and we’re writers, we want to write long content, we want to give away a lot of our best thinking. And that’s that works for us may not work for other people. But if it does work, then embrace it into your point about thought leadership, what a perfect thought, What a perfect time to think about expertise and thought leadership when we have access to effectively infinite markets. And the cost of publication has dropped to essentially zero. Without you know, zero marginal cost, it’s, there couldn’t be a more amazing time to be producing high quality content. The downside is it’s also easier to produce crap. Right, right. You’re competing against junk. That’s that’s the challenge now is how do you and I think you’ve you’ve probably captured this better than anybody in your training is how do you? How do you recognize that most of what’s out there they’re going to be competing against is probably junk, and that you need to rise above that?

Michael Simmons 11:52

Yeah,

Shawn Twing 11:53

that’s a very different animal.

Michael Simmons 11:55

Yeah, there’s so many interesting things in what you said there. You know, one of the things I talked about, which is probably not a predominant idea is that the downsides of direct response marketing approach, not saying it’s bad, but just that it has downsides. What was your journey there? realizing that, okay, we, you know, it can’t be all that we should also do branding, and think about other ways to go up the mountain, because you spent over $100 million in paid advertising and working well, yeah,

Shawn Twing 12:24

I mean, I’ve managed a lot of paid advertising. And I’ve been in other masterminds. And André and I have consulted for some of the bigger direct response companies I’ve consulted with other direct response companies. It’s, it’s this is a, this is a funny thing about the big direct response companies. Outside of those companies. People looked at them as being like the source of how to do things inside the walls of those companies. Many of them are thinking, wow, this really isn’t, this isn’t continuing to work the way it used to work, we need to do something else. So it’s this weird dynamic, you know, of course, it still works, right? They’re still there several billion dollar plus big direct response companies out there, direct response still works. In principle. If you embrace the principles of direct response, to me, that makes perfect sense. But when you become dogmatic and a purist about it, that’s that’s where anything starts to fall apart. If you’re if you have to make the sale in the first interaction. For example, if that’s part of the dogma, that creates so many problematic downstream effects, then if you’re unless you can make a very simple change and say, I’m willing to engage with your attention and not require you to purchase or not requiring you to opt in. This is a classic example, think about the most classic direct response in form quote, unquote, funnel. I hate that word. But think about the most the classic model, you pay for somebody’s attention. And then you immediately bring them to a decision point where they can’t proceed past that unless they give you an email address they opt in. And then you give them something with bells and whistles, a free report a video series, In what world do we where else do we do that? How many stores have you ever walked into when somebody where you walk in and you want you want to browse around and the store owner says, before you can do that I need to get your email address before I can show you what I have nowhere, it doesn’t exist anywhere. So to make a simple change like that, just recognize, maybe instead of forcing the opt in at the beginning, let people come in and browse around a little bit. Let them look around. That’s heresy and then direct response community. Yet, when you start pulling back the curtain on some very successful online businesses, you realize many of them are not are not forcing the opt in, they’re actually giving away content in the beginning to filter out the wrong prospects to get the right prospects. It’s a very tiny change. But that is a monumental, it’s a seismic downstream effect from that one change in thinking.

Michael Simmons 14:51

Yeah, the positive of the DEC direct response world is the measurement. You could do something and look back and see okay, here’s a back to impact I had and once you start to move away from that it becomes maybe more intuitive or values based and harder to measure okay what was exactly the content that made the difference or are we you know or is this decision really going to work how do you think about making those decisions in your business that go towards that once you start to walk away from the comfort that measurement gives

Shawn Twing 15:28

oh André and I are both systems theorist so I’ll open the door for André to riff on systems theory and then I’ll try to formulate my thoughts while he’s doing that

André Chaperon 15:39

yeah so we our lens on everything we do is is is tethered to systems thinking and the more that we you know it to be clear we are we are students of systems thinking we certainly not experts in in in in systems thinking so we are learning by doing and about understanding concepts and then putting putting them out there into the world and then seeing seeing what happens and seeing where the emergence happens and then learning from that and then it reinforces our own understanding that then we then put back into the business and we do other things so that’s our lens on on systems theory and one of the main ideas around it is is you as you optimise the optimise your system which is the business centre business is a system it’s a single big system within that there are multiple subsystems and that and that single big system can only have one functional or or or goal and for us we’ve decided that that the most meaningful thing for us is to put those to create was to optimize for happy customers and happy customers is something we’ve defined that that means something to us is the certain criteria that you know that’s not a happy customer because the easiest thing in the world is to produce customers anybody can use customers but there’s a world of difference between a customer just any customer you know just because you want to sell them something and a person that has decided that they want to be be somebody under your wing for you know way into the future and they want to buy everything that you put out and there’s that enthusiasm and an excitement around the fact that they’ve that they’ve found you and they’re happy that they have so we optimize for that and as soon as as soon as we think about it that way everything else changes because all the decisions that we make within the system are guided by that by that single principle so we can’t do a certain thing by choice because it will move us away from creating a happy customer and that starts all the way from from the very beginning from the from an ad on facebook for example you know that’s still part of the system and that’s the way to think about it

Michael Simmons 18:19

Can you give an example of a surprising choice that you’ve made where

Shawn Twing 18:24

You’re teeing me up for my favorite story, Michael

André Chaperon 18:28

oh here we go

Shawn Twing 18:29

yeah I love this so if you ask 999 out of 1000 marketers if what I’m about to say makes any sense and if you have to if you have to 1000 marketers if this makes sense I’m guessing 999 will say this makes no sense yet we do it and it makes tremendous sense for us so the the central idea of systems theory is that the effects produced by the system are emergent from the collection of relationships and assist they’re not you can’t point to any part of the system say that did it it’s the system is in a relationship the best example of a system is a car it’s very easy to understand the great irony of a car is that the thing that provides the power the engine on its own can’t even move a car across the floor if you put if you put all the parts of a car in a garage floor the wheels get the drive train you’ve got the engine you’ve got the fuel system the cooling system but all on the on the pieces none of them actually produce motion put them all together and they produce forward motion so that’s that’s a system so our business system we optimize for happy customers meaning it’s not it we don’t just look at how many customers do we create in there we can look at some metrics you know yes its customers minus refunds but it’s not it’s not just that it is how many what do we get for feedback it’s all these different factors so here’s an example of how we make decisions that seem crazy in a local linear version yet from a systems version make perfect sense so in April of this year we our first product together was just a collection of my experience managing paid traffic called the traffic engine

the that was a 10 days or so we did a pre promotion then we did the actual promotion itself and the energy of the promotion because it was André and I writing together and we love this stuff there there was there was a lot of enthusiasm there was a lot of excitement around that promotion we could see it in the replies that we were getting in the the enrollment close on a monday and closed on my my birthday on that following monday that sunday really started saturday but that sunday I started getting really concerned that we were going to have a lot of people buy on monday because they had had 10 days of this experience that was exciting they felt like they were part of something and they were enthusiastic and we were in André and I can both right so it would be very easy to push some people over the edge to buy who probably shouldn’t buy so so if you can look at it from the perspective of a couple of perspectives who cares you know they can always refund you know that’s that’s not how we approached it we what we realize is if we want if we want a happy customer we want somebody six months from now to say I am so glad I purchased the traffic engine I did these things my business is so much better that’s really what we wanted and we we needed to actively discourage people from buying who shouldn’t so in this this is a testament to how similar similarly crazy André and I are we had a conversation on a sunday and I was at the time I was nervous even mentioned this which subsequently we’ve done it for time so I shouldn’t have been nervous but what I the idea that I had and brought up was I said why don’t we create a free course that lasts as long as the traffic engine which at the time was imagined as eight weeks ago through it what if we create a free eight week course it sounds so crazy and we give it away on the last day so instead of stacking a million bonuses you know by before midnight and you get you know a free toaster a typical or you know bonus reveal whatever instead of doing that to encourage sales why don’t we go the opposite way so that’s what we did we created this we call it sort of a minI marketing MBA online MBA we’ve just put together and we spent hours and hours and hours curating what we felt like were the seminal pieces of content that we had consumed over the years like Kevin Kelly’s 1000 true fans and you know Jack Borns profitability triangle and just resource after resource and we put them in the right order and we organise them in to forever into their last email on that monday said and we call it out we said we here’s what we could do we could stack all these bonuses but we don’t want you to be a customer if now’s not the right time for you don’t worry we’ll open this up again in the future you’re not missing out and if you shouldn’t buy today for any reason or if there’s any you know we like to Derek Siver’s idea to hell yes or no if it’s not hell yes for you right now that is totally cool but we’re not going to leave you hanging because that creates false pressure that if we say don’t worry don’t buy it’s not a big deal but you’re you’ve been engaged with us this whole time and there’s nothing to do next we’re going to accidentally can create pressure on you to buy so what we did instead is we said here’s something you can have instead and it was it’s deep ever since we’ve done the same thing we’ve created we’ve created three free courses total or two free courses total we we always give something away in the last day of our promotions to discourage last day purchases from people who shouldn’t buy most people will look at that and say in isolation that’s insane you’re literally taking money off the table you’re literally not you’re discouraging people from buying on the day that they’re most likely to buy in an enrollment but we’re not optimizing for last day we’re not optimizing for for money we’re not optimizing for how do we maximize last day sales all of those a reductionist linear cause and effect thinking we’re optimising for the production of happy customers and you will be a happier customer more likely if you shouldn’t buy today if you wait six months and we have maintained the strength of the relationship in between by continuing to assist you so that’s a that’s a very that’s a clear example of what seems like it’s crazy but the positive feedback we get for people who reference especially later like oh I didn’t buy the first time I bought it now and I’m so glad for whatever reason they’re glad they wait but they’re happy they’re really happy because we treated them the way we would like to be treated ourselves

Michael Simmons 24:49

so counterintuitive and obvious it’s obvious in the sense of like you ended it with three people the way you want to be treated yourself but you In the industry, how yond individual testimonials, how could you tell that that strategy was working on a systems level? And how long did it take you to get that confidence?

Shawn Twing 25:12

I don’t mean, there’s one easy answer we’d like from a metrics perspective, our refund rates are consistently far lower than 1%. So that’s like it from a metrics indicator, that’s a really good indication that we are not shepherding people in. And it’s not uncommon to see 15 to 30% refund rates. So when we say less than 1%, I mean, that’s that’s the stratosphere. That’s rare air. So that’s one indicator to use, because then you get a much better at, you know, you can have, if you just measure customers, then you’re getting a false positive. But if you measure retained customers, so customers, after the refund, period, whatever, then you get a little bit more accurate. That’s tangible. But then feedback, André, how we get, we get so many emails, comments, as we have comments enabled on virtually everything that we do. So we see people referencing in the comments.

André Chaperon 26:06

Yeah, I think one of the hardest things to wrap your head around is, you can’t look at a spreadsheet and see this, you know, these numbers don’t play out in a spreadsheet, other than the obvious things like the refund, the refund rates are pretty much non existent. But one of one of the things that we do is, is we’ve got this concept where we, we create a customer before any transaction takes place. So that’s a mindset that we have or a principle. And it was it was funny, because we had opened, I think it was our Summer Enrollment. And we and we were, we had open enrollment for orders one madness given to us. And at the time, and there was there was one person who wasn’t a customer, and just just how he was interacting with us via email. So he would email us directly and the comments on the site, I just got a sense that he was getting so much value from from this interaction. So I checked in our system, and he wasn’t a customer. And in that moment, because if you want an hour, we’re writing content every single day, one of our content pieces, call them out, and we’re going a little screenshot. And he said, You know, I’m not gonna name his name, because I haven’t asked him I asked was permission was on our website, I guess. So, so we wrote about and put the screenshot of what he had said, and I knew that he was going to become a customer, he had all the trades, that we had put that out there before we even knew. And then one person said in the comments, yeah, but you know, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s really easy just to, you know, give content and then for people to, you know, take that stuff and not use it or or, you know, this isn’t about just giving content, there’s there must be something else to it. And he is anyway, so when we, when we opened enrollment, he was one of the first people to bar. But then what happened later on is now for our last enrollment, which was I don’t know, it was a few weeks ago, I took a look at his record in our system, and every single one of our enrollments he had purchased all of our products. So he now is a customer of every single product that we own. And that was somebody that just because we treated him as a customer before he became a customer, we just knew what was going to play out. And that trade happens with so many of our customers, when you go there, and you have a look. But we haven’t got some fencing system that then passes an art and we get to see them on a spreadsheet. It’s just something that we just pay attention to. And we can see that some of the things that we doing are working, so we’re just going to continue to do them. But it’s not a cause and effect thing. You know, we can’t turn it back to one single event. Yeah,

Michael Simmons 29:04

it’s really interesting. As you guys know, I’ve been that way the mental model club and study great entrepreneurs and innovators. And one of the things I really walked away with from at a fundamental level is that there’s one of the advantages is there’s very long term thinking number one, and then abstract thinking that there’s kind of similar to what you’re saying there’s concrete would be everything is measurable immediately, and it doesn’t get the result. And then abstract is more of this long term as this seeing the connections and doing things that would seem counterintuitive to other people, even just putting aside time for learning an hour, two hours a day is crazy from just a short term perspective. And even if you’re not even sure how it’s going to connect in the future, so it’s it’s just really interesting to see it in this place, how you’re applying it.

Shawn Twing 29:54

And one thing that we have is an advantage which is deliberate is there there aren’t layers of people between In us in our customers, when somebody emails us, we see it. And if somebody says I don’t under, you know, I tried this thing, or I don’t understand it, I didn’t get this result, like, it’s, those don’t get filtered through some collection of Support Agency, then eventually it rises to our attention, we see it. And then, and oftentimes what we’re creating in our free content is informed by something that somebody has raised. And it does, and we don’t want to be clear, when someone asks us a question, we don’t then go check and say, Okay, I was just a customer Is that it? Doesn’t matter, you know, and we get, we get some crazy, crazy questions. You know, we get questions that are like you. Okay, well, here’s my background 20 paragraphs, and here’s what I tried to do. Five it’s in, but there’s never a moment where we go like, Okay, this isn’t a customer. So they’re, we’re gonna give them the abbreviated answer. It’s like, Okay, well, here’s a, here’s a question that we can chew on. And often, that question would benefit a lot of people so that we could come becomes part of our content that we answer it, we think about it, we sort of pull it apart. Another thing that, as André was talking about, it’s something that happened in last enrollment. There is a good indicator, it’s one of those things that, again, it doesn’t show up on a spreadsheet, but it’s a really good indicator that you’re moving in the right direction, which is we had, I think there was an affiliate, I’m guessing this was an affiliate who promoted our one of our enrollments, which is somewhat rare for us, but they someone promoted, so they weren’t seeing all of the content that we were creating. And they I think they kind of came in with this idea of, okay, just just another, you know, more internet marketers, you know, selling something. So they they posted, they asked the question in the comment that we had answered already in our email series, but, but there was a bit of an edge there, there’s, there’s some suspicion, write a comment, and I happen to see it right before I went to sleep at night. So I kind of had it in my head, like, you know, rather than tackle it now, I’ll jump. First thing tomorrow morning, I’ll get up and give this person a more thorough, useful reply than a quick answer. When I got up the next morning, we had had three customers of ours actually write really long replies to the person’s question, in depth about their own experience with our courses, and answer way better than I ever could have. But that was a really interesting indicator that it was like, Okay, here’s somebody who, it wasn’t that they seemed critical. There was just some kind of that suspicion in their voice, like, what’s really going on here, right? All of a sudden, we had members of the community up for customers jumping in really saying, No, no, no, you’re, you know, don’t be concerned about this, you know, here’s what you really need to know. And these guys are legit, and they really care. And I think that person actually ended up becoming a customer. Yeah, I can’t remember

Michael Simmons 32:59

Interesting

Shawn Twing 33:01

what it was. Yeah. But it was just really, it was a fascinating experience to see sort of the tribe rally around and say no, you know, like, they answered it, which was really, that was, that was really cool.

Michael Simmons 33:13

He Yeah, I was going through your website today in preparation for this interview. And you’re just you talk, obviously, a lot about Tiny Little Businesses. And the value of that, and you mentioned how you get, you’re seeing all these messages come in. And it’s interesting, I think a lot about this thought leadership industry has, in some ways similar to beginning of the software industry. Now, you know, let’s say the stuff beginning of the software industry was the 1980s. Now, we’re 40 years later. And you know, there’s clear practices on what does a software company look like you can go to, you can get a four year degree in computer science. There’s a whole funding ecosystem, and the thought leadership industry is going to figuring what the best practices are and how you create a thought leadership company, and what’s the lifestyle like, and so I was curious, from you guys. How do you look at it from obviously, you’re not building a business to sell, but what is that? What is building the business mean to you about what the size is, what you outsource versus what you don’t and what your lifestyle is?

André Chaperon 34:18

You’re probably not going to like our answer.

Shawn Twing 34:23

Now I really want to hear what you have to say.

André Chaperon 34:26

And, and I think, you know, Shawn, and I are kind of lucky that that we met, you know, in this in this weird way, because, and I thought I was gonna do this by myself for the rest of my life. But now, there’s two of us that are going to do that. Yeah, it’s because we love doing this work so much. And we are both lifelong professional learners. We just want to understand stuff for our own benefit our own thinking we you know, We, we want to have a richer experience of the world. And for us, as writers, we like to think on the page and thinking public. So we always that, again, it’s, it’s because we want to understand things more. And then it just so happens that we have an audience that we share this with, and we can be of service to them are satisfying our need to enjoy this work that we’re doing. So I feel hugely privileged to be able to wake up every morning, and this is what I get to do. And I get paid for it. You know, it’s, it’s the perfect thing. So we don’t think I mean, I certainly don’t think of some number, you know, I don’t want to get to 10 million a year or whatever the thing is, if it happens, it happens. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t. But that’s not the point. For us. The point is salons, we get to do this work every single day, and get better at every single date. So poster that’s I hadn’t put up yet, which is better than yesterday. That’s what it says. And that basically frames everything. You know, we rock up every single day, and we want to have a better understanding of what we did yesterday, me and the work that we do want it to be more meaningful to the people that we’re serving, just better every single day. And if we just focus on that, which is our presence, everything else just slots into place, we get to earn money, good money. And I guess that’s, that’s the weird answer. It’s not about some number.

Shawn Twing 36:34

Aren’t you gonna say something crazier than that.

Shawn Twing 36:37

Yeah, there’s a very, there’s a great interview, by the way. There’s a really great interview, or Tim Ferriss interviewed Michael Lewis, the author.

Michael Simmons 36:47

I heard that one

Shawn Twing 36:48

he had read it, I think it’s near the beginning. Where there Michael Lewis, he says, like, he doesn’t need the money. I mean, he’s probably I mean, you could probably burn hundreds every day and his fireplace and never run out. Like he doesn’t need the money. So why does he keep doing what he’s doing? And when I heard that, I thought, finally, somebody has described my experience, he put the words to what I’m doing, which I didn’t have the words were beforehand, which is, you know, every state is I mentioned earlier, every system needs to be optimized for a single goal. And my life system is, you know, I’m optimizing for the experience for the creative experience for that feeling of being immersed in something that feels important to me. And, yes, money is an emergent effect from that money comes out the other end. But it’s an effect, it’s not the cause. It’s not ever I know, we never sit down, I can try to imagine what our business planning process would look like, it would never be a typical business. Like, I could imagine somebody saying, Okay, well, let’s let’s do your 2021. Planning. So let’s start with how much you know, income to each of you want to earn next year, and we would both look at like, what, like, What are you talking about that’s, that’s so far down the line, like we know that will be a byproduct of doing the thing that we care most about. And we also need to be clear, that’s a luxury, we’ve both been in this game for a long time to get decades each. So we’re in a different phase, if this were day one, we were trying to figure out how to put food in our mouths, it would be a very different conversation to have, then you have to have some sort of monetary goal, and you have to work back from that. But it’s not. Those are differences in degree, they’re not differences in kind it’s not, it’s just kind of go out and just figuring out how to make money. That, that really, it’s just, that’s not, in my experience, that’s not actually going to get you to the place that you want to go including the money place, which is sort of strange. It’s figuring out the thing that you can be so immersed in that time, disappears or standstill, or whatever it is, and, and it’s enjoyable. And for some people that’s making systems that produce boatloads of money of people. That’s their thing. Cool. I mean, great. You do you. But for us, it’s really the experience of thinking. And in testing our thinking and teaching and in many ways, you know, I feel very selfish because a lot of when I’m writing, I’m writing for me because I want to understand something. Yeah. Yeah, when we, you know, André and I write together, which is really weird. But it’s like that. It’s it’s the thing that neither of us ever learned how to do. And we did it effortlessly, which is really strange to me. And the experience of it of is, is incredible. And so what I’m, when I’m in that place, when I’m writing at around thinking, and I know that I’m going to at the end of that, be able to hand it off to somebody who’s going to return it back better. And then I’m going to make some contribution that’s going to make it better. It, there’s something about that that’s just so wildly intoxicating that everything else just falls by the wayside. It’s weird. It’s saying you just say it seems weird. That’s, that’s it. That’s what, that’s what I’m optimising for.

Michael Simmons 40:17

That’s amazing. I’m the same exact way, I feel like a kid in the candy store, every day, I get to write and like waking up early, so I can get a little bit of extra time to read. And it’s interesting, it’s just the cultural values, I think, are very different than the software, I feel like, they’re, it’s more of like, you’re raised, that you’re going to work, you know, 80 hour, 7080 hours per week, you’re raising capital, you’re being in the business as a liability, because then the business is less valuable. So you have to basically outsource everything. For me, I’m big fan of Jim Collins, he, he has the 1000 hours per year is a creative.

Shawn Twing 40:57

20 Mile March.

Michael Simmons 40:58

Yeah. And so it’s about three hours per day, and he tracks every single day, whether he gets to that or not, and adds it up over time. So I love that for myself of like, I definitely want to do this, I’m not trying to get out of writing, like I want to just do a better and better. One question for you guys is I’ve never seen I love the idea. I love the bouncing ideas off people and developing it. But I’ve never actually seen anyone else in our industry actually have a partnership where they actually write together, you talk more about how does that work? Like every day your your writing together? And how does that how do you bounce ideas back from each other? What difference does it make and is that the future, you feel like more people are going to do this just like in software, there’s multiple people creating software.

André Chaperon 41:46

And I don’t know, if more people are going to do this certainly not. as, as, as writers in this world, people love doing videos, videos are easy to do Easy, easy to produce. So I’m not quite sure how that works. With the collaboration, obviously, you can have a team and you can have a script, and then you can read read something. But for us, we love writing so much. And all of our courses that as, as you know, they’re 95% written content. So our collaboration is all, you know, through that lens of writing. So whenever we writing emails for enrollment, is, there’s a window that we need to produce stuff, we don’t plan the whole thing out. For us, it’s very organic, it’s, we’re going to open enrollment for x product. And this is the theme that we that we want to teach, you know, in that space, and then each morning, we will rock up, we will start writing a single email. And then from that email, some sort of emergence happens and ideas just really, you know, just present themselves to us. And then when we expose our audience to that email, then then then something else happens, right, then they respond to a day, there’s, there’s a feedback loop that that suddenly happens, and that informs the next email. And we just love that process of not knowing what’s gonna happen next. And you’re not really caring, because we just want to show up to this collaboration. And we know that that that that work that we producing is so good, because of the way that we do it. And then obviously, our audience is a recipient of that. So they get to see the the end result of, of this fun net we having on the other side. And then for our courses, it’s currently now we were busy creating content. It’s a lesson for a brand new course that we’ve just opened up. And typical. So we decided to do this in December. That’s you know, so same exact same thing happens now we are creating course content and material is advancing these, these these lesson pieces backwards and forwards. And they get to see that result as we release it. So they get to see like a finished version, which is not really a finished version. It’s just a version that’s finished. And it’s just the neck loop just continues on with so we keep having, keep having fun. They keep getting really amazing stuff that then moves them forward and their business support. So it’s just win win on both sides of the coin for us.

Shawn Twing 44:31

I think I’ll give you some of the tactical stuff because we this is something that we wanted, we had to we had to invent it and I wish someone would. Alright, so last, so last, last November, André and I were consulting for this client together. And we just we had to produce content for that client. Front End for them. So André flew to the US we locked ourselves in a two bedroom suite outside of New York City for five days and created it in day one. We had no idea how we hadn’t even talked about how this is really how we do everything. He hadn’t even really talked about how we were going to do it. We’re like, well, we’ll just we’ll do it. So day one. We bought, we sort of, we talked through that idea. We both went to our separate rooms and wrote, and then we had no idea like, what are we going to combine to so we had no clue. And then we came back. And then somehow, I don’t know when we stumbled in that, that five days, we stumbled on Brian Koppelman and David Levine. So they were the two guys who wrote Rounders, they’re famous for Rounders, they wrote the TV show billions. They’ve done a lot and but they write together. And I remember Roger said, like, Oh, these two guys write together. So for all of a sudden, it became possible. Like now, people writing together was in the possibility space. So something happened, where we diagrammed out, we’re both structural writers, we have to be thinking structures, we diagrammed out the structure, and I was like, Okay, I see it, I’ll go write a draft, like get started. So I just went and I wrote into, I couldn’t write him, I wrote, like 1000 words, couldn’t write anymore, and then hand it off to André. And then it was like, 1600 words, and we just tag team row for an entire day. And then we did it for the rest of the week, we produce this content. And what has since evolved from that. And there’s some there’s some really kind of funny, this weird little factors like André, six hours ahead for me. So often I will write something is that they will have had a conversation, we will know like the theme will have some will have some some structure to it. But but that’s it. And then I’ll sit down, and I’ll write, but it’s a really weird feeling. Because I’m writing for an audience of one, I’m writing for my collaboration partner, my creative partner, who is the person who I am most concerned about, for my right, so it sounds like it sets the bar impossibly high, but it’s the opposite. It’s just, I’m really writing something for him. And I’m not reading it, because I want him to say to me, Hey, good job I’m writing because I want it to rise to the level that he’s going to look at it and think, Okay, he’s given me something to work with here. And then often, you know, he’s up six hours before I am, and I get up early, but I often he is then had his writing time with that same piece. So for me, it’s like Christmas morning, I see the I see the new version the next day. And it’s bad, it’s always better. And it’s Oh, shit, and then something might come in, or I might have an idea. And you know, it’s to be clear, it’s not all sunshine and unicorns, if we had were working on this thing together, where I wrote the first part, and it was very clear, I said, something was off. But it was very clear that I just I missed it. Like they just it wasn’t getting there. So it’s not a can we Pat each other on the back the hardest all day, but it is this profound respect for the other person. But I don’t know if I’ve ever even thought about it, really in that level of detail. But when I write that I’m really thinking about two things. Is this valuable to the audience? Why do they care? How can we make their lives better? But I’m writing for really, the most important person who I write for is André to say this, this is my best thinking on this subject right now. And I know it’s not our best thinking. So here’s, here’s what I’ve got, go make it better. And I’ll do what I can with this new thing that you’ve done. It’s like that improv, it’s always and always, and it’s been something and he’s added to it. And he’s done something. And I’ve added to it. And in the end, I never I never know who wrote what I look at a piece after I’m like, Damn, this is good writing, but I don’t. I never feel like I wrote it. I always feel like we created this thing that neat. Again, it’s systems theory. It emerges from the collision of the two of us, and neither one of us can do it on our own. It’s really weird.

Michael Simmons 49:04

It’s amazing. It makes me think of Michael Lewis’s going back to Michael Lewis’s book on Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky. Have you guys read that?

Shawn Twing 49:12

You know, we love The Undoing Project. It’s such a good book, sad book, too. But yeah,

Michael Simmons 49:16

yeah. very honest, to have just forget, you know, power law has worked out so well. And then the challenges that can come up along the way, What’s the hardest part of doing that? Like I when I think about I think, Okay, well, sometimes one person really believes in a strong idea, like we should do this topic or do it this way, or the voice that how do you shift it makes a little bit more complicated having a voice.

André Chaperon 49:42

And, you know, one of the things is that sometimes it’s very difficult to write a certain thing that just doesn’t come out. Shorter I joke, if we haven’t heard from the other person, you know, by a certain time, so I’ll text him or he’ll text me are you? Are you having enough art? And, you know, it’s, it’s really perfect. So you’ve just got to bed, because there’s two of us doing it. When it was just me, you know, if it just wasn’t happening, I’ll just drop it and then come back to it tomorrow. You know, I don’t get to do that anymore. Which is, which is a good thing. So forces me just to create the best version I possibly can, no matter how difficult it is, knowing that, that backwards and forwards, we’re going to get to the place, we need to get to that in service of our audience. It’s just so much better than then when I was doing this by myself. Because then it was just me. And if somebody wasn’t great at this was great. Instead, it stayed not great until one day in the future, would loop around and have a better idea. So now I can fix this. No, that’s not it’s just so much better for our audience.

Michael Simmons 50:59

I can see that I just wrote I published an article the other day, but I started it in April. And then I just was working on it got lots of revisions, and like, I just doesn’t feel right, but I don’t know what to do. So I could see, I’ve done that several times. So I could see in that kind of situation. Just by the collaboration, you could find what’s blocking it and get over that more often. Yeah, I

André Chaperon 51:21

mean, one of the negatives is now when I look back at all of our published courses, which was, you know, which I created years ago, they, they look terrible, even though they great products, you know, conceptually, what they teach is, is very good. It’s it’s the writing and, and the way that I was thinking about certain ideas, and articulating those ideas. Now, I can’t wait until we go back and rewrite them all, which is what we’ve been doing this year, and what we’re gonna be doing this first half of next year. So we’ll, we’ll get to a point where all of our courses are the new version, where it’s through a collaboration process. What

Michael Simmons 52:03

this is jumping through, or going adjacent is, I’m fascinated by these idea of feedback loops. And so I think about a lot of my life, in the business in terms of what are the feedback loops? How quickly do they happen? What’s the quality? So let’s, for example, if you publish something, you do get the likes and comments. But is that the best? I’ll just think about this morning, have? I noticed that my longer articles? I can look at the stats I see. Okay, look at it doesn’t have the highest click, like rate percentage of people who like it, or even the highest share rate. I’ve had several people message me and say it was the best article of mine they’ve ever read. But it doesn’t show up anywhere, that would be obvious. Beyond that, that’s hard to capture. So like how do you build the right feedback loop? So you’re getting accurate data? And put, you know, so I hear you get a feedback loop with each other. You’re talking about how you have access to seeing your customer emails, and you’re responsive to those. And yeah, you’re going back and doing your courses again, and just almost adding another level of iteration. On top of that, how do you look at feedback loops in your business.

André Chaperon 53:11

So the way I look at it is this is this is this layers, right at the very top layer, it’s, it’s the craft of me, which is which is my understanding and my ability to translate that understanding into words that our audience can then use learn from, you know, with some utility for them. So that’s the highest level. And then at that level, I know that there’s a lot of improvements that I need to make. So the one is having a coach who’s brutally honest about her feedback that she gives me. So on that very high level is she’s helping me improve my ability to translate ideas to to the page. And so now I know that by the time it gets to the audience, I’ve done as much as I possibly can do in this moment right now to, to meet with it for me to produce my best work in that moment, which may not be the best work in, in when you assign, but at this point it is and then it goes through the middle collaboration grinder, and then it gets better and better and better. And then we that we share that. So now. Now as we share it, as you know, there’s there’s the next feedback loop, which is, you know, customers responding to that. And they can respond to that before they’ve made a purchase, or they can respond to that just was it impactful. And one of the things that that are showing them out of ordinary daily is we don’t just share useful information. That’s, you know, anybody can share useful information. For us. It’s very important that we share insights. And for us, an insight is something that shifts someone’s perception. Like they it’s like an aha moment where they can slip their heads not ship. I didn’t I had never thought about it that way. So it thing that we do is we try and engineer as many of these insights as we possibly can. So people can can have these, these these, these, like weird, you know, moments of, of clarity. And so everything is in service of that. And then looking at the feedback, also by email, because people are more open by email, because they know, it’s only between them, and us. And then, you know, very regulation short, and I have a conversation with, with a customer or prospect. And you know, we’ll ask them a question. So they’ll ask us something. And instead of sponsoring it, we asked him a question back. And then there’s suddenly this dialogue that’s happening that really didn’t need to happen, that it’s happening. It’s happening because we wanted it to happen. And we can, you know, we care to understand what so and then all of that is, is just various layers of a feedback loop. That’s, that’s useful for us. This monster, yeah,

Shawn Twing 56:00

I think about it, I think, similarly. But I, I’ve condensed it down to just the title of a book, which is Will it Make the Boat Go Faster. So the book is about the British men’s eight rowing team, they hadn’t won gold in the Olympics run in 100 years, some ridiculous amount of time. This is

Michael Simmons 56:18

just to be clear. So this is a book that you’re writing or you recommend, this

Shawn Twing 56:21

is a, this is a book I recommend it’s called Will it Make the Boat Go Faster. You can also just get the book entirely and get everything you need from the title. It’s, it’s, it’s a really interesting idea. So it’s written by I think he was the captain of the British men’s a team. They, when they went to Sydney, they hadn’t won British men’s eight rowing team, when they went to Sydney, they hadn’t won a gold and I don’t like it was like 100 years. And of course, they won gold. And the reason that they talk about and has since become a consultant and comes down to this one question, everything they did for four years, every decision they made, was that the smallest feedback loop imaginable. There was one question, will this make the boat go faster? And if the answer was no, you’re like, you know, someone comes, they’ve got brand new shoes, like, Oh, we know this, so and so wants to sponsor us, and they say these shoes are amazing, whatever. Will those shoes make the boat go faster? No, then why are we talking about it? On to the next decision, right? Like, what everything every trainings, everything they did was optimised around that simple question. So when I think about Graham Duncan has a great line. He’s interviewed by Tim Ferriss. Yeah, guy, and he has this great line that, you know, our genius is right next to our dysfunction. So my genius, which is eerily eerily close to my dysfunction, this show can be dysfunctional. But my my genius is I can see with precision, like what’s necessary for something to be true. A lot of it’s because I’ve spent years and years and years immersed in Theory of Constraints, and really in systems theory, and really thinking about what’s necessary, but not sufficient, and like, what are the ingredients, that’s how I think it’s also the dysfunction can show up where if something doesn’t make sense to me, I just can’t do it. Like, if it doesn’t, there’s a connection between A and B, I’m like I’m out. But that those two things really play hand in hand. Because what I’ve realized it creates many feedback loops. And what I’ve realized is a lot of the nonsense we spend our time doing, has no relationship to what we actually care about. So here’s here’s an example this summer, I had, André, the only difference in our personalities is André tends to be more measured and thoughtful about things. And I tend to jump out of airplanes and try to figure out how I can make a parachute before I hit the ground. And I had this burning desire for a course I wanted to write this summer that in retrospect, there is no way in hell, I could have possibly done it. But I just it was it was a nagging me and I wanted to do it. So I mentioned André several times very clear to me that he is he was far more reserved that I was excited. So we use we just sort of had this is something I borrowed from somebody else, but very simple. One to 10. Write one to 10 how enthusiastic was I about it? And one to 10? How not enthusiastic was he about? You could just do one to 10 how and things. But the deal is the higher number wins, period. No discussion, right? So I probably was a seven. And André’s resistance was probably an eight, if I’m remembering correctly. So that could have occupied you from a feedback loop perspective. That’s really fast feedback, to have that mechanism in place to say, here’s this thing that’s occupying a lot of my thinking cycles. It’s something I’m interested in. Now, if the two of us, we know what we’re optimising for we both have the same sort of shared perspective where Is he on that scale? He’s an eight not wanting to do it. Where am I on the scale? I’m more of a seven wanting to do it. over it was over it that there’s no ego. There was no there were no tears. There was no, I’m so mad he didn’t agree with it was it was over in a conversation, it was a very quick feedback loop to say, you know what, yeah, that that makes sense. It was the right decision or looking back on it was the right decision. So that like you can, we can build in feedback loops. But I

Michael Simmons 1:00:24

really like that the simplifying it,

Shawn Twing 1:00:26

it simplifies, but it connects back to that original point, which is, if you don’t know what you’re optimizing for any decision will do. Right? So if you’re like, Well, you know, I don’t, I don’t actually know what I’m trying to accomplish. So now I have to think about everything. Does this sound fun? Does that sound fun? Does this if you know, will this make boat go faster? Yes or no? And if the answer’s no, you’re done thinking about? It’s the fastest feedback loop in the world. Now sometimes the answer? Isn’t that clear? It’s like, well, it might. Let’s talk about it. Let’s talk about it within the context of what am I actually optimizing for? Not? Is this something we could do? We could do a lot of things, something we should do, based on making this boat that we’ve created faster? So yes, we could do more promotions to make more money. But our boat isn’t about faster for us isn’t defined? How high? Are we piling the stacks of money. So that becomes irrelevant. Like it just, it’s the greatest feedback loop in the worlds the shortest one, because it tells you exactly where to focus your attention. And more importantly, all of the bullshit you don’t have to focus on, right there just there’s so many decisions, where Andre will ask me something, and I’ll look at it and think he’s already he’s already made this decision. Sounds great to me, I don’t even need to be involved. Because he’s thought about this. And I don’t I’m not going to add something just quick, long answer to a short question

Michael Simmons 1:01:47

you want the topic I want to talk about is so you know, I personally believe that in the future, there’s going to be you more people, you know, you know, who are in the profession of learning, coming up with ideas, sharing it with an audience helping get a transformation. And it’s also can be overwhelming for somebody just getting started. You have to choose what medium, you know, are you writing, audio? Do you do a podcast video speaking? What platforms? Do you do your own? Do you do email? Do you do SEO, LinkedIn, medium, and so on.

Michael Simmons 1:02:23

And then not only that, once you’ve gone through that, you have to think about what your voice is, really get clear on your topic. These are some things I’ve seen people struggle with. And you know, people could be thinking about it for months. How do you, let’s just start off with the medium of writing. Both of you have gravitated towards that it sounds like and I agree that the one unique advantage that writing has is it really forces you to become a better thinker, and you could see your ideas in different way and iterate on them in a way you couldn’t with video. Why else? What do you think stands out about writing? And do you feel like more? This is a skill that everyone should have, that it’s a foundational skill that’s gonna help you do better video better and audio better? Or is it just your guys preference?

André Chaperon 1:03:12

I’ve read or heard or, you know, either read or heard someone say that you need to be, you need to over time become world class and either writing or, you know, audio or video, visual, or audio, because that’s the only way you can communicate, right? So you got to pick which one you want to do. And for us for some of the reasons that you’ve just said is we’ve chosen lighting, you know, for me are the voice for writing, I think slowly. So writing makes sense for me, because I can kind of, you know, stuff comes out. And it looks very messy. If you look at one of my first drafts, I mean, that’s not something I will put in front of anybody. But that’s how I’m thinking. So if I have to do you know, audio video, like we do now, that real time feedback loop that’s happening right now you ask a question. And in this moment I respond. I find that very difficult, not just stressful, but just my mind isn’t rings to think in that clarity of words, in that one stream sentence, it’s not going to do that. So I find it really difficult. So I’ve never one thing really fast there.

Michael Simmons 1:04:26

I’m the same way. But I always remember, you know, so hard growing up like you’re a middle school, high school, like, you know, guys are always you know, making fun of each other thoughts. Always people would say something like, hey, my feelings are and then I would, I would dream I wouldn’t have a good response. Well, I dreamt about it. And then I was like, hey, that’s what I should have said, but it was always way too long. So I can relate to that feeling.

André Chaperon 1:04:49

Exactly. The same way. Everything happens later. And then and then it’s better. So you know for me and it just it just happens and I’m lucky you know Shawn’s Shawn. As a writer as well, that’s a that’s a primary method of thinking and articulating your thoughts. Although he’s, he’s, he’s exceptional at doing, you know, video he can, he can talk to, to a crowd to an audience in real time and it’s no problem for him because I don’t have that ability. So, but luckily both of us are writers separate us. That’s the medium for us that that was set in stone already. For somebody else. It might be video, you know, Frank Kern, he can do both. But you know, he’s so good on video. That’s his, that’s his medium. And, you know, Evan is he’s like a video guy, and I’m sure he’s, he’s a great writer, but he jumps on the camera, and you know, behind the camera, and he can just rip and it just sounds amazing. And he’s like, all his thoughts are just coming out just the way, you know, as they should. Right? They

Michael Simmons 1:05:49

sound like he’s written them down. And organized

André Chaperon 1:05:53

yeah. So yeah, I think that’s, that’s the first thing somebody needs to decide on. Which, which one, they’re going to become world class that

Shawn Twing 1:06:02

for the right reasons to experiment to, though, right? You know, you got to figure it out. Like, I don’t think André and I woke up one day and said, oh, we’re actually writers, and we had to get there. And to figure that out. It’s funny, I’ve never thought about this. But the reason that I prefer writing is for the opposite reason that both of you prefer writing, which is I think, too fast. So for me, it’s very easy to blurt out like 10 things that are churning in my mind. And what writing allows me to do is to get those 10 things and realize that eight of them don’t make any sense. And that two are actually the same thing. And then I work through my thinking. Right, so I become a much more precise writer, than I am a thinker. But the thinker is what gives me the canvas from which to draw the ideas to write. I never thought about that before such an interesting distinction.

Michael Simmons 1:06:56

So for example, will you speak your ideas? first conversation that once is there the narrowed down into writing?

André Chaperon 1:07:03

Sometimes you go,

Shawn Twing 1:07:06

but I’m just thinking of, like, for me, the thing that scares lots of people is speaking in front of crowds, or something for me is always exciting, not because I want to speak in front of a crowd. But because I want, I want to I curious when I’m thinking about something, and when I’m in a position where there’s some pressure and there’s an audience, I do better thinking. So I remember, years ago, I was at a conference, that person was running the conference as a good friend, Molly Pittman, from Digital Marketer was supposed to speak about paid traffic, she landed found out or I think her mom was sick or something and got back on a plane and had to return. So like 15 minutes before that time slot, probably 500 people in the audience for 15 minutes before the person run the conference. Like hey, do you want to do a presentation like be on a panel talking about paid traffic? Like absolutely like to me that no concern whatsoever? Because I’m really curious. When someone asks a good question. My second favorite quote, is E.E. Cummings. Always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question. But someone asks me a good question. I’m, I’m, it’s like Christmas morning. I’m like, ah, like, I hadn’t thought about that. And I’m perfectly content. I don’t have any ego at all. And just saying, André, use this. And I use this abbreviation TOL all the time, which is thinking out loud, which is we’re just gonna think out loud for a moment. Sometimes we do that in writing, sometimes, after we do it, literally thinking out loud with conversation, but the ability to just think out loud and see what emerges, to me is like, that’s what that’s the greatest gift is I don’t, I don’t always know, I write morning pages every day. But generally, the morning pages like what comes out for me is a surprise. Like I don’t it’s it’s emergent. Like, that’s like this morning was an incredible, incredible writing session, because there was a lot of stuff in my head that I sensed but didn’t have words for and then they emerged and now now they have some form. So that for me often happens, these conversations where we start somewhere and form begins to emerge. And once there’s form, and there’s some precision, then we can start asking questions. Is this the best solution? Are there better ways to do this? Do we agree would we do this differently? Do we have different perspectives on like, but until there’s forum, we can’t really do that? Yeah, I’m learning way more today.

André Chaperon 1:09:30

For me, I’ve to start with with the thing that’s the slowest. And that’s just a pen and a paper. So I can talk faster than I can draw with a pen and pencil so I start with pen and pencil because it slows everything right down. And it forces me because my because my monkey brain is slacker, just a jumble of stuff. And, you know, any, you can only write one word at a time. So that that’s that’s supporting the mechanism for me. And then I’ll always, almost always it You’ve probably considered but then while the main thing is this, there’s always some, some some sort of visual. So there’ll be some some picture, if you look through any of my diaries, it almost always starts with some picture of what I’m thinking of, or I’ll start to write something and then I’ll draw something to make sense of it, like the bigger picture, and then I’ll start to, to write again. So that’s, that’s, that’s the first piece and then then it goes digital. And so that’s, that’s

Michael Simmons 1:10:33

really interesting. You know, and you’re just talking about note taking, is really feels like 2020. With, have you guys followed the release of Roam at all? Yeah,

Shawn Twing 1:10:43

we are both believers.

Michael Simmons 1:10:45

Oh, yeah. Okay.

Shawn Twing 1:10:48

André believes more than I do.

Michael Simmons 1:10:51

After something,

Shawn Twing 1:10:52

right. André is a more of a believer than I am, I see the value of Roam. But I also have some issues. But that’s, that’s neither here nor there

Michael Simmons 1:11:01

is that your main way of the big thing is, I think a lot about is there’s no taking, but then there’s also no taking for thought leaders. And that’s something different too, because you’re not only need to take notes. So you could have it for later to apply to your life. But you could write from it. Is there I guess this is not just about Roam. But just more broadly. How do you think of Do you have any? What are your most unique thoughts on how to capture ideas that you’ve never seen? talked about anywhere else?

Shawn Twing 1:11:35

It’s an easy question. You better start André?

André Chaperon 1:11:42

Yeah, I don’t have a good answer to, to be honest, you know, both Shawn enough, kind of buy into the whole his little custom idea. So and Roam is like purpose built to be able to do that. So that’s very interesting, that the hardest thing to me, and I think it’s the hardest thing for Sean as well is, is to create examples. So though, that idea, we should take some idea, you’ll compress it into, let’s say, three, three seconds, and the most three seconds to sum up that entire idea. I find that difficult, because it’s so easy just to capture information. So I’ll start with my pen and paper, I’ll get clarity around something, and then I’ll start to capture it inside of Roam. Or I’ll get an email from somebody and I want to capture elements of that in the links and that all go to that all goes into Roam to Roam, it’s very easy for it to turn into this place where you just store stuff. But it’s, it’s, it’s more difficult to then, you know, be purposeful about creating these examples, this compression of thoughts around every single note, which I’m very bad at. So you know, I don’t have a good answer for that. And it’s something that I’m working at getting better at. Like, every single time I do do that. It’s always it’s just, it’s just, there’s so much better than and then it’s not like around because then you get to see these, these ideas that pop up later on, that you heard and then you can you can obviously work on them to make them better.

Michael Simmons 1:13:22

You feel like it’s changed? Do you feel it changing your brain and you helping you hasn’t made a really big difference in the quality of your writing or

André Chaperon 1:13:32

my biggest improvement, my biggest upgrade far is is been doing their journaling. So wanting pages, free writing. In fact, one of the best books I’ve ever read is Accidental Genius. Because the whole book is just about different forms of writing to express ideas, you know, pull ideas out and to get clarity. So for me is, you know, I do my morning pages are not as good as you know, Shawn does it every single morning. I don’t. And that’s that’s a goal I have. But I’m bad at what I do do is I will I’m always noodling down ideas. I’m always writing always drawing pictures. And I’m and I’m free writing. So if I’m writing fiction or nonfiction, the first place to start is to get all those those ideas in some sort of way is it’s expressed through through generally, through some version of journaling, and then it’s, you know, Roam and digital is, is a downstream effect on that. And then what I want to do is, if I’m listening to podcasts I have, I have these little small notebooks that you can put in your back pocket. And then I have the my pencil but I have them short ones. So so the pencil has, has a little hard talk so it doesn’t break the nib. So the pencil goes in my pocket and in the little notebook. There’s my pocket and then I’ll go somewhere and I’ll listen To a podcast. And while I’m listening to it, I’ll just let you know. In analogue, I’ll write down ideas as they’re forming. And I’ll timestamp it. So I’ll press pause, I’ll write down the timestamp. And the idea I’ve had in that moment about this thing. And it almost always turns into some sort of picture. Because I’m very visual. So, so the podcast, I’m listening to gets, you know what the notes kind of take shape, and some picture emerges. And then I’ll put that into Roam afterwards. But, again, I’m bad at this. So what I’ll do is I’ll take a photograph with my phone, and I’ll put that photograph inside of Roam. So all the notes today, I just haven’t touched them on X.

Michael Simmons 1:15:44

visual system, you use the printer. In other words, you use triangles for pyramids, and Venn diagrams and quadrants, or is actually more doodles like characters interact with each other and

André Chaperon 1:15:56

our systems diagram, the thing that influenced me the most back in the day was mind mapping. So almost everything is is a very ugly mind map. So it’s just an idea with a circle around it, and then a line will go to the next thing. And this, this mind map will just start to emerge as I listen to something along the way, if a picture like I re-read a part

André Chaperon 1:16:22

of The Art of Possibility, and one of the ideas was this, this idea that is you can have a stone block, but that stone block is actually a statute if you really think about it, and what we need to do is take away all the, for the best. So I just drew a square, the sweetie square with a little face in the middle. And that was my idea. So when I see that, I can understand that very quickly, what it’s about that idea and says no words there, other than the little mind map pieces that you know, that they’re blocked into says block of stone, and the face just says within the statue that needs to be revealed. And so that, you know, that’s, that’s, that’s one of the blocks that’s meaningful to me.

Michael Simmons 1:17:11

Really, really fascinating.

Shawn Twing 1:17:13

I’ll throw a thought out there to this counterintuitive, I think so. And this is this will tie in my complaint about Roam, too, which is Roam’s. Excellent. So when I say my complaint about it, it’s in that context. And I can’t remember the book, I’ll find the book because you’ll appreciate it, Michael. But the phrase that is that jumps out at me as the phrase is display, the word is disfluency. So for some reason this really resonate with you, I think it was because for years, years and decades, I would look at that would work with clients, and they wanted to see a dashboard of their results, like what was going on. And I never, I mean, never literally never saw anybody making a decision from a dashboard. Because they never there was no context there wasn’t, there wasn’t a story. So what often I would do is I would go look at a lot of data, and I would write the story of the data that we did x, then this thing happened. And we did why. And it was it was very time consuming. But it was always infinitely more valuable than the dashboard. And then I’ve read a book where in that book, there’s a story about a school district, I believe it was in Detroit, they had a very similar experience where I think p&g was nearby or something. But they got tremendous with just the schools where students uniformly were not doing well. So they built the most sophisticated dashboards for each student in their performance. And nothing improved. Like year after year, nothing got better. And then some intrepid teachers sort of took over like a janitors broom closet, and they got some butcher paper, big sheets of brown paper and crayons and post it. And they would sit down and they would have conversate they would look at the data. And then they would say like, Oh wow, this is such an such teacher and her students are doing way better in math than other students. What is she doing differently? And then they would they would find out that she had this sort of novel curriculum and say, Okay, well let’s borrow that curriculum or it looks like Johnny’s not doing so well on all these classes. And a teacher was saying oh, well, you know, his sister died or something and it was the disfluency was the friction that was created from the interaction that made made the system actually work. And if you look at the father of the intellectual father of Roam, the intellectual father of of Zettelkasten method is Niklas Luhmann. And if you look and see what lumen did, he wrote everything down on note cards, he sort of a five shaped cards, and then he would have an h1 had a unique number and then he would, he would put them in order, but then as they branched he would start adding suffix suffixes and getting further and further and further branch. And then physically interact, make, make the connections in space and write references on it. But if you think about how this fluid that is, it’s a, it’s a cosmic pain in the ass to do that much work with it. And, but But think about what happens when you interact with an idea that you’ve written down 50 to 1000 times to understand how other things relate to it, the friction created by the system is where your knowledge and your insights and your understanding emerges. And when we use a system, like Roam, or whatever it is, fill in the blank, when you use a system that is designed specifically to eliminate friction, I think we actually take away the thing that we need most in learning, which is being forced to slam up against these ideas and think, you know, this idea doesn’t hold water, or this idea is the same as somebody else’s idea. And when you get to get in and start monkeying with it, though, that is that reveals itself. But if you can just do it, the nomenclature, the nomenclature for Roam, which is really easy, you have double brackets, and you just link to an idea. And then later you realize you’ve linked to that idea. 50,000 times Oh, that’s amazing. Except it’s not because it’s easy. It was there was there nothing forced you to say that this, that when I read about an idea here, and I read about the same idea here, that they’re not actually the same, and that spending the time in the space where it’s, there’s friction. To me, that’s where all of my learning has happened. So, you know, I do use digital tools, I use Evernote, primarily I do you use Roam a very extensive room database, it’s, it’s amazing for what it does. But I think the part where I feel I feel a little bit like it’s we’re going in the wrong direction almost is that we’re trying to make things easier, that should be harder that man making, making the learning harder. It’s not going to be popular to your audience, I suppose.

Michael Simmons 1:21:53

I really resonate with that, because I’ve noticed that people on our course and our writing course, they’re really gravitating towards wrong. But what I’m seeing it, I’ve had a bad feeling about it, just because it’s you know, there’s an all the scheme of things that are stopping people. You know, sometimes if you’re just getting started, making sure you have the perfect database, and everything is honestly the most direct path to getting out the work and the ideas. But I think part of my resistance is exactly what you’re saying that, you know, part of what we want, we want to build a database in our brain first, as a part of building that database is really struggling to get the idea clear. And for me, I think it’s a great forcing function to even write it out for someone else to get it. So it’s good enough that someone else would find value. Horses are brains. Number one, okay? What’s really important here, we’re going to the audience who’s really busy. So forces you think about what’s important, what’s not important? And oftentimes, those sorts of decisions are the sorts of decisions that make it go deeper in the mind. Versus as you’re saying, the opposite would be just okay. I got this information. Let me tag it, link it up, and then move on. So yeah,

Shawn Twing 1:23:07

I think we’re in Roam can be really useful. Sorry, André, we can interrupt you. I think if you if you collect a lot of information, and then in you use the bracketing well, so if you if you you’re writing something, and that refers to like I was just doing this the other day. So if you’re writing something, and then it refers to an idea that you have codified and something that you’re interested in, so that you’re putting brackets around it to say this is a standalone thing. So earlier you mentioned Jim Collins, André, our big fan of Jim Collins, we thought, you know, well, it’s the cannonballs and flywheel are two principles that we really, we’ve talked about a lot. So let’s just for the sake of argument, say that the flywheel which is true in my room instance, that the two words, the flywheel is a standalone entry. The mistake I made with Roam in the beginning is that as soon as I created that, I then felt like it was my job to go populate that page. So I would go and I would try to write up, like, what’s my understanding of the flywheel and it’s from Jim Collins. And of course, I had to then link to Jim Collins, and it became like this, for the lack of a better phrase becomes like this intellectual masturbation where you’re just you’re doing the thing. And then at the end, you’re like, wait a minute, what was I actually trying to do here? I was trying to get the insight from this concept, like, that’s what I really want to have happen. So the change that I made with rain, the Roam was sort of a discipline that I started developing is don’t force myself to go codify the thing. Let the thing become a collection of links about that thing. So anytime I’m listening to somebody if I have podcast notes or something, and I think to myself, that’s sort of an interesting take on a flywheel or here’s this person talking about their phone. I just make the reference because then the page that is in this is where I think the magic of rome is then the page that’s the flywheel just becomes a collection of every time in every context I’ve ever referred to it and then I can go look and I can look at that entire collection of links to it and think to myself okay what emerges from every from the 100 times I’ve I’ve made a note to myself that this is kind of like a fire wheel what can I learn from this and that’s the second discipline that I think is missing that you are hinting at where it’s not just a data collection device there has to be something built into your process where you come back and you say let me go look at these things that are aggregating a lot of references and start writing more about them what does this collection of references mean what what can I draw from it and from there that I think is is incredibly valuable you can start saying you know the flywheel start you know you start seeing where it shows up and the different iterations and and you can then that’s that’s valuable and that’s this book it’s it’s it’s work I that’s weird yeah

Michael Simmons 1:26:07

That’s a great great insight there and I’m looking at the time here guys you guys have been very generous and I really just really on a personal level resonate with your values and I think it’s really good for customers you guys obviously love doing it you built a very successful business that’s just gifts to the world where can people go to learn more about you guys and the business sign up for one of your courses

André Chaperon 1:26:35

well the bad news is you can’t sign up for any course because because they’re all closed everything’s yeah we’re the worst marketers ever but everything was great yeah so tinylittlebusinesse.com everything’s everything’s on there so what a world building is there on the front end for free just browse around but nothing’s linear so you’ve kind of got a stumble upon stuff which is the whole reason why we do it this way we’re where we we purposefully create easter eggs when people have to find an easter eggs all over the website there’s there’s no funnel that that you’ll see you just got to browse around and find things yeah and then next year we will we are going to reopen all of our courses as evergreen products

Shawn Twing 1:27:25

and we just did a end of year 2020 year end review and did a quick count and in 2020 we created 105,000 words of free content so wow that was just that’s just this year so you get to the site and you can find it’s all there it’s there I don’t think I don’t think there’s an opt in required for any of it actually it’s hard to opt in so don’t don’t go looking for an opt in to find like the good stuff there’s 105,000 words on the site that does not require an opt in we’ve arranged thematically you can go and explore it and then somewhere along the way you’ll stumble on an opt in if that piques your curiosity we do we do it usually bi weekly newsletters and other stuff but don’t rush to opt in and go explore there’s lots of fun to be had for free

Michael Simmons 1:28:15

awesome and it’s best for creators who want to build their business online so they’re getting awareness engagement conversion those are the themes that you help people with

Shawn Twing 1:28:30

yeah that’s our that’s we’ve tried to make the system of making money online just clear and distilled and what’s required to do that successfully from our perspectives and just in the three parts that you mentioned we have courses on those but there’s there’s a tremendous amount of free content for each of those as well

Michael Simmons 1:28:51

Awesome. you guys are awesome appreciate it and we’ll have to do a part two sometime in 2021 or 2022

André Chaperon 1:28:59

Thank you, Michael. alright guys

Outro 1:29:02

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Michael speaking at the National Chamber Foundation Annual Meeting to senior executives and entrepreneurs

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